Monday, September 17, 2007

Dying to be Heard

Anybody getting into disagreements deeper than usual these days? Mars in Gemini (communication) will be spending the whole week closing in on the opposition to Pluto (death) in Sagittarius. People are dying to be understood. Speech is primary to human survival, coming fom the cry in the throat for nourishment, and never is it more obvious than when this opposition comes around. And never is the truth more anxious to be revealed, the pretense stripped.
Mars is action and Pluto draws upon hidden reserves so force in articulation rules the day. For some people, exceptional insights are coming along with the courage to speak up. For others, hurtful words are being thrust with excess force and some can't control what they say. Another problem with Pluto is the inability to find satisfaction, so the points might be forced repeatedly with the sharp sword of Mars, still missing the response some are hoping for, the power of their words escaping no matter how hard they push. Torrential verbiage can result and major misunderstandings. Of course, some people are speaking with clarity, honesty, extra perception, and Marsian accuracy. And best of all, some people are witnessing and comprehending themselves.
Along with the struggles in communication will likely be questions about blogging. How much is the right amount? Where are the best places? Are these the people I really want? Are they hearing me in the way I had hoped? Am I compulsive and addicted (Pluto)? Am I running from blog to blog looking for something that's not really there? Am I learning in a way never previously experienced? Am I enjoying myself finding unique companionship and belonging? Some of these questions might find answers by the end of the week.
Whatever the outcome, this configuration is a great opportunity to learn. The lower mind of Gemini energized by Mars seeks immediate knowledge from the higher mind of Sagittarius and this, along with the penetrating insight of Pluto, can briefly uncover extraordinary wisdom.
As the jazz artist Mose Allison sang .....
How much truth can a world stand?

84 Comments:

Blogger Kadimiros said...

Well, I told one friend that his evil conspiracy theory didn't hold up, but that's par for the course for us. We still love each other. Humorously: It frightens me, but I have compassion. ;-)

Recently, an old acquaintance of my family came to mind. I remembered that I hadn't spoken to him in about two decades. We had our differences of opinion on social issues. Then, I thought, Oh, well, he did indirectly open the door to a great deal of good for our family. Fine, it's okay if he wants to contact me again, I thought. I can deal. It was as if I was replying to an unspoken query. I felt a small mental barrier dissolve. Starting that evening, he e-mailed and phoned. He wanted my opinion on astrological software. He was having trouble figuring out the formatting on his blogs. I sent him a few links, and I showed him how to clean his blogs up a little.

And he told me how his latest teacher removed a parasitical, um, fallen entity from his solar plexus. There was a treatment fee of course, which he happily paid. Oh, he told me that there are alien intruders kicking people out of their own bodies, and he suspects that Jesus has been reborn as a woman who runs a spiritual school ($178 for a 30-minute consultation). I remembered a lot more reasons why I had let the communication between us lapse. I'm afraid that whole war in heaven drama wasn't my cup of tea, but I let him ramble. It was the best I could do for him. :-)

17/9/07 5:06 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

By the way, that was the guy in the lottery stories I told some time ago.

My sister told me recently that she feels that she has to watch what she says, even though she's a boss of her own business. She's quick and blunt about her observations. She says one day her husband complained that he can't say anything to her! She said she just stared at him speechlessly and she thought, "But...but...I'm right. Aren't I?" Well, she probably was. She thought that she was making a neutral observation about something that caught her attention. But she found that her pointing out things that were off -- the lawn has died repeatedly because it was watered at the wrong time of day for their sun exposure, or the contractors ignored her direction not to put headers over the doors, or the stone fence wasn't laid at all correctly according to the beautiful landsdcape design she drew on computer -- upsets other people.

Mainly, I've been too busy working on presentations and a communications database application to spend as much time chatting with friends as before, so I simply reply to e-mails with an occasional quip for maintenance.

17/9/07 5:14 PM  
Blogger jm said...

LOL.

I felt a small mental barrier dissolve.

I suppose that's good no matter what. It's hard keeping them in good repair.:-)

but I let him ramble. It was the best I could do for him. :-)

You're a kind man.

17/9/07 5:21 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Well, no more than usual, but I finally figured out, with indirect help from Lynn, that Neptune, passing thru my 10th/Aquarius, is behind my lack of passion for my job and general malaise about my direction in life. What a relief to identify something I can point to!

17/9/07 5:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

But she found that her pointing out things that were off ... upsets other people.

Accurate. So what is one to do? point these things out only when asked, and accept the consequences of fences being laid wrong? Not let people being upset upset you?

I suppose it depends on how imortant the transfer of information is to yourself. That can be troublesome with Mars-Pluto. Life and death feelings over small matters. Then again, maybe they aren't so small. And what are our motivations in explaining these details? A lot going on at once. Sealed lips sometimes are a good idea, if possible.

17/9/07 5:30 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yep. Relief is the best.

17/9/07 5:33 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"You're a kind man."

Thanks. :-) Sometimes I worry that I'm too demanding of my closest friends. Do I really need to fix things? It's best when they ask first, I reminded myself. Then I thought, Do I want to feel like one of the last persons not to drink from the tainted well, like in the story of the mad kingdom? Is that okay with me?

Recently, I went to the Psychology Today Web site for the first time. I saw a quiz that promised to tell me if I needed therapy.

I admit that I felt a vague sense of disappointment when the results came up negative. I was sure it had more to tell to me about myself. I think that the quiz somehow incited me to anticipate the pay-off, even if it was serious something to fix, ha ha! I suppose that would be easier. Get professional help, read a few books, and soak in all that lovely attention, you know. I guess the rest is up to me now. :-) Well, maybe with a little help from my friends.

17/9/07 5:35 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

A friend of mine had a baby last week and a cousin's wife had a baby in May. It's really easy to ask about birth times when they're newborns b/c no one thinks anything of it, including the ones who think astrology is kooky. I don't foresee any significant involvement with either child but I ran their charts just for educational purposes. I can't believe how one chart is easy and the other is inscrutable!

17/9/07 5:35 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Fears come and go. It's really easy to remember that, especially as you age.

It's amazing to me how insignificant most moments are and how our destinies seem have a motor and wheel of their own.

We're always doing the wrong thing in the wrong place if you look at it. that's what motivates us to push on. But, of course, something is right as well, for the Nowists among us.

17/9/07 5:39 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

A Nowist Taoist! :-) Could be a song.

17/9/07 5:44 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Do I want to feel like one of the last persons not to drink from the tainted well, like in the story of the mad kingdom? Is that okay with me?

I like this. Yup. It's A-OK with me. Alone? Not a bad exchange.

I'm into antitherapism myself. I don't like the idea of setting someone up to know more about the self than the person does. that's why I hightailed it out of counseling. Don't like the transference. I saw a documentary on Jung that was extremely illuminating and changed my opinion of him forever. Not good.

17/9/07 5:45 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The reality is most everyone is not well in many ways. fact of life. Physically and psychologically. But so what? Thousands of dollars are unlikely to change that fundamental. Something fixed just paves the way for another breakdown somewhere else. I say let sleeping dogs and therapists lie.

17/9/07 5:50 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Friends as counselors? All my friends have straightened me out on a thing or two, and I'm actually impressed with their accuracy, but I'm still the same model.

17/9/07 5:52 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Naw, I mean with the help of demented friends for good cheer and who do lovely things like bring me nourishing foods when they know I've been hard at work making money to pay the rent and possibly forgetting to feed myself. :-)

17/9/07 5:59 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I suppose it depends on how imortant the transfer of information is to yourself. That can be troublesome with Mars-Pluto."

Yeah, it depends on the bigger aim or objective at which we're aiming. It's like editing, we have to prioritize and add orienting cues to help the core of the message shine through.

In my sister's case, she does have to be assertive to people who yes her but ignore her. She's the owner paying for services agreed upon! But she's learned more and more to do it in a way that tends to gets people on her side. Bringing good homecooked food to the workmen seems to help a lot. Their eyes lit up and one of them said, "It's Christmas!"

"Sealed lips sometimes are a good idea, if possible."

I think I'm okay with that. :-)

17/9/07 6:02 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I can't believe how one chart is easy and the other is inscrutable!"

It's like that for me, too. :-)

17/9/07 6:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It's like editing, we have to prioritize and add orienting cues to help the core of the message shine through.

Good description of the process.

17/9/07 8:24 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"So what is one to do? point these things out only when asked, and accept the consequences of fences being laid wrong?"

The stone patio with the low, curved sitting wall (I should have said wall not fence, earlier) came out beautifully in the end. The workmen were surprised and pleased at what their hands produced, and the manager wanted to take photos to show prospective customers. It was a good end for how it had all started: She had rejected the contractor's designer's drawing, and she'd sat down to make her own drawings to show them what she wanted.

I did ask her what she was going to do about the front lawn. As her husband had not taken her advice, she was going to let him learn the hard way how to keep the lawn from dying on him. :-) I think it's died six times this year. The neighbors are laughing.

17/9/07 8:34 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

And he's such a perfectionist in a different way. My sister is more like, don't try to line up all the decorative stones perfectly straight like that. It'll never look right if you do. They're not congruent shapes to begin with, and it won't work. Let them look interesting, unforced.

She's also had to correct things that went wrong building the new dental office this month. She'd lost sleep when she saw that the steel framing for the walls weren't right, but she'll manage.

She's literally having nightmares now, but she'll be really pleased when it all finally comes together. Her dream career materialized, finally, after several detours. I think this will really be it for her, with her double Capricorn and NN configuration, and Saturn in the 10th.

I'm going over tomorrow with one of my demented friends to help with pulling computer network cables through the walls. That should give Mars something more to keep him out of trouble.

17/9/07 8:45 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Well it's probably true. Experience is the best teacher. Maybe. After 10 years of a bad relationship, a friend of mine asked for my astrological advice. The timing worked out right for the separation she was trying hard to achieve. Loneliness ensued and now she's back in the relationship, I suppose thinking it will be different. So experience has been discounted, I guess. And, of course, there is possibility of change.

Laughing neighbors.:-)

17/9/07 8:46 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm going over tomorrow with one of my demented friends

One? How many are there?

17/9/07 8:48 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Loneliness ensued and now she's back in the relationship, I suppose thinking it will be different. So experience has been discounted, I guess. And, of course, there is possibility of change."

You know, I told one friend that it's interesting but, though living single in recent years, I'm not at all lonely! Well, he did ask, so I told him. I'm not sure he understood.

I suppose that's one reason he commented that I'm like from a different plane. Another reason is probably because I said that I just didn't see myself in a desperately needy type of relationship.

Another guy asked me about how I felt about relationships. He'd been telling me about his marital problems. I said, Well, I used to think about getting into a new relationship, but after a while I thought, if I really wanted one, I would be in one. He made a snort of disbelief that I could be that nonchalant about it.

How many demented friends? Ha ha! Just one or two at a time is more than enough to keep me sane. ;-)

17/9/07 9:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Man, you just opened a Plutonian vein.

I told one friend that it's interesting but, though living single in recent years, I'm not at all lonely!

Sometimes I think the most not-lonely are the solo people, the ones who can find enough within themselves, or who are satisfied with what they have and are, and like it that way. I've known a few. It's impossible for most people to refrain from longing for a relationship when they are without, but I think it's good to know both states of being. I've had both and they are about equal, but now I prefer the single life.

Loneliness is interesting. In some basic way I think we feel some of this all the time in and out of primary relationships, but one thing being solo does, is teach how to fill this space with other entertainments. Our minds can certainly do that. In fact, the solo state leads to self-discovery as one thing becomes another unimpeded. There are big advantages to being alone and not lonely, not looking for another for completion. Very big. I love the subject of loneliness and aloneness. A lot of it is games we play with our own psyches. And I love highly independent people. Something special about them.

I said, Well, I used to think about getting into a new relationship, but after a while I thought, if I really wanted one, I would be in one. He made a snort of disbelief that I could be that nonchalant about it.

That's exactly what I tell people when they seek my input. I don't get many snorts though.:) I say that about everything. You'll get it if you really want it, whatever it is. Most people don't understand their participation in their own experience. Their say in matters. And of course, their self sabotage for good reason.

The friend said she was afraid she would never find someone so she returned.

17/9/07 9:54 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Here is a theory developing as we speak.

Most of my best friends have been single males. I find that they are more relaxed, in the moment, and committed to the dialogue. My attached friends seem to be leaning away to an extent, maybe worrying about the other subconsciously, if not consciously. The freedom of the unattached has always relaxed me so conversations have a good easy pace, open-ended and free to ramble. My attached female friends in particular are usually troubled and anxious, wanting to talk about things: (The Relationship).

I don't like talking about relationships a whole lot, not much of a gossip, and even when I was in one for many years, I didn't talk about the problems. Didn't really help. So naturally, I like single people, or those who can detach when with others.

17/9/07 10:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is one of the reasons politics never appealed to me, and needless to say, celebrity watching. It's all about the others and what they're doing wrong. Of course, I complain about wrong-doing often enough, but it's rarely personal. I don't enjoy that at all, part and parcel of relationships. It's written in stone that the other is to blame. Not my philosophy, and no fun. I have to admit that being single and having only myself to blame has been a pleasure in comparison.

17/9/07 10:10 PM  
Blogger jm said...

You? Sane? Really?

17/9/07 10:11 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Well, let's see. The count varies over time, but presently about four friends have been both long-term and at least slightly demented (very often in a good way). The rest are more peripheral, or have come and gone.

"You? Sane? Really?"

Well, not crazy enough to pay for years of talk therapy, at least. :-)

"Man, you just opened a Plutonian vein."

Oops. Oh, well, Pluto is doing a dance number with Mars now.

"There are big advantages to being alone and not lonely, not looking for another for completion. Very big."

It's a good thing. I realized that a relationship at the wrong time could distract me from developing as I needed.

I'm not discounting the benefits of having relationships. There has always been a creative aspect to people with whom I associate, so that seems to be a key emphasis.

"That's exactly what I tell people when they seek my input. I don't get many snorts though. :)"

Heh!

"Most people don't understand their participation in their own experience. Their say in matters. And of course, their self sabotage for good reason."

That's a tough subject. Blame gets in the way of empowerment. My best friend seems to get it at times but not consistently.

"The friend said she was afraid she would never find someone so she returned."

Ah. I feel there are riches hidden in each person. I used to think, if only people could see themselves properly.

17/9/07 10:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Ah. I feel there are riches hidden in each person.

And you just plucked a couple.

I realized that a relationship at the wrong time could distract me from developing as I needed.

So very wise. And...

I used to think, if only people could see themselves properly.

Wouldn't that be refreshing? But how, really? People are inside looking out and can't see what they project. So they depend on feedback from others. No wonder they're are confused. One problem with expensive "therapy".

This is a fantastic subject. Where to look to see ourselves properly.

17/9/07 10:37 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Most of my best friends have been single males. I find that they are more relaxed, in the moment, and committed to the dialogue."

That's an interesting observation. In college, my phone number book had a preponderance of female names in it but, thinking on friends now, I suddenly realized that it has become mostly male.

17/9/07 10:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

That's a tough subject. Blame gets in the way of empowerment.

My view exactly. As simple as 2+2.

17/9/07 10:38 PM  
Blogger jm said...

In college, my phone number book had a preponderance of female names in it but, thinking on friends now, I suddenly realized that it has become mostly male.

Really?

"They" say that females are more interested in relationship sharing. I think this has been proven. The girlfriends I've loved, mostly Geminis, were single when we frolicked and talked so easily about everything. No relationship distraction.

It happens all the time with girlfriends. As soon as one gets involved, the relationship ends. It's probably not so with men.

I never was interested in relationship above other pursuits, so maybe that's why my male friends. When I have relationships they go on automatic pilot.

17/9/07 10:45 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"So they depend on feedback from others. No wonder they're are confused. One problem with expensive 'therapy'."

All this talk of therapy reminds me of the joke that goes, "My therapist doesn't understand me." :-)

"This is a fantastic subject. Where to look to see ourselves properly."

Well, I don't believe Jesus would charge me $178 for a 30-minute consult. I might buy her a cup of coffee, though, and just have a nice chat.

17/9/07 10:51 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Thinking about it, it does string up nicely. I can go back to high school and college and remember that my male friends were people I did things with, explored with, tried new and exciting things I'd never done before (didn't follow the one up in the air for sky-diving though), and traveled new territory mentally in conversation. I have a tendency to find male companions with shared interests, while the females, I think, are selected for different reasons, ones I'm not clear about. Bonding maybe? Not my favorite thing either. Some women are different.

It goes back to prehistoric bonding, I believe, when the men were out hunting and the females held together for protection. I wonder if this primitive fear is aroused when females group now. They sometimes scare me.:-) Maybe all that heavy make-up is for that purpose.

17/9/07 10:52 PM  
Blogger jm said...

My therapist doesn't understand me." :-)

HA HA!! No wonder I never did it!

Well, I don't believe Jesus would charge me $178 for a 30-minute consult.

I don't think so either. Maybe just a hand down from the cross.:-)

You bring up a great point. I've always had a problem mixing money and this kind of relationship. Something unsavory about the whole thing. I got out of it fast. I won't tell you the full extent of what I think. We are in mixed company. Civilized at the moment.

17/9/07 10:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

What a relief. All the breathless emotional hysteria gets me in a tizzy and none of it gets worked out except over time. Might as well just sit back, relax, and have a nice civilized tete-a-tete. No rush.

We simply can't control others, nor we can we solve the 3, 7, 12, 13 or infinite number of mysteries of life. The ancient masters got pretty confused themselves, god love 'em. Jesus and and a cuppa joe sounds pleasant though. He was quiet, so I understand.

17/9/07 11:04 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Really?"

Hmm, yes. Funny how that happened! I hadn't really thought about it before.

"The girlfriends I've loved, mostly Geminis, were single when we frolicked and talked so easily about everything. No relationship distraction."

Hmm, well, it's true that my female friends were all single...at first. And couple relationships or new families do pull friends away from each other.

"Thinking about it, it does string up nicely."

My sister was like that. She says she always used to hang out with the boys on the street. It was just more interesting for her. She played basketball, got to ride motorcycles.

Our mother thought she was a bad girl, and that led to the other mothers in the neighborhood thinking the same thing for a long time.

"They sometimes scare me.:-) Maybe all that heavy make-up is for that purpose."

LOL!

17/9/07 11:08 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yes!! I think I just might have solved a mystery that's been perplexing me for ages. Good ol' Pluto.

All that make-up, the 5# fake fleshy mammalian cannonball protuberances, not to mention the exposed rear ends in very short clothing... could it all be designed to scare away invaders??
Shiny sharp teeth are involved as well. Very white.

17/9/07 11:15 PM  
Blogger jm said...

My sister was like that. She says she always used to hang out with the boys on the street. It was just more interesting for her. She played basketball, got to ride motorcycles. Our mother thought she was a bad girl.

Now isn't that interesting? Bad? And romancing them, luring them into bed, possibly procreating, is good?

No wait a minute, that's bad too. Just tempting them is good. It's really rigid, is it not?
Not luring them is also bad.

It's amazing we're somewhat sane and in control at this point. I'm so glad my parents weren't interested in me. Didn't think anything about me one way or the other.

17/9/07 11:21 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The ancient masters got pretty confused themselves, god love 'em. Jesus and and a cuppa joe sounds pleasant though. He was quiet, so I understand."

A nice Three Dog Night song, "Sure As I'm Sitting Here", with an appropriate lyric comes back to mind.

Yeah, coffee and maybe we'd chat about carpentry or something like that.

"Shiny sharp teeth are involved as well. Very white."

Oh, no! Ha ha, well, a little make up can be nice, but the thing that I find really excessive is long red nails. That just brings up the wrong associations. Maybe that works for other people, it just doesn't do it for me.

"It's amazing we're somewhat sane and in control at this point."

We kids in my family ended up doing our own thing anyway.

17/9/07 11:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

OMG!! You too?

the thing that I find really excessive is long red nails. That just brings up the wrong associations.

They really scare me. As a musician I could never afford that luxury, although some of those C&W girls play their little guitars with ones as long as they come. Never could figure that one out.

17/9/07 11:39 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The long red nails certainly reveal the predatory nature of women, which is why I never believed what they say about gender. I think it's altogether misleading to try and teach children that men are aggressive and violent and women are sensitive and gentle. I think they're still trying that. We all know it's false.

17/9/07 11:43 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"some of those C&W girls play their little guitars with ones as long as they come. Never could figure that one out."

That really calls for scientific study. :-)

I just think that cultural imagery is really weird in a lot of ways if we really look at it.

All right, thanks so much for the evening conversation. Got a few things to do before traveling tomorrow. Good night!

18/9/07 12:18 AM  
Blogger jm said...

'nite kad.

18/9/07 12:27 AM  
Blogger pen said...

Hi jm, it's taken me a long time to get back on 'the NZer views the USA'. I could call it 'watching life flash by in the USA'. I'm supposed to be writing here, and waiting for the 'torrents of verbiage' but there's so much else on offer for one who's led a pretty quiet life in the antipodes. I'm thinking there's a lot of kindness and largeness here, a lot of good-looking, a lot of talking and ostensible openness; there's much to impress, even (or especially?) in Iowa. So far, though, I'm still waiting for substance and grit to show up. I'm not sure how real I can be in return to these warm, nice Americans. And I still haven't found a Krispy Kreme donut. (Do I really have to eat one?)

18/9/07 6:54 AM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

I think it's altogether misleading to try and teach children that men are aggressive and violent and women are sensitive and gentle.

That and also, they don't express any problematic sexual desire...That's what I was taught. It gave me a horrible guilt complex (I must also be aggressive and violent and perverted). I delayed by many years any ability to comprehend relationships between the sexes. The proper way to approach a woman must be to idolize her as a perfect being... I grew up believing that the world would have been a peaceful utopia if only men weren't in it.

My parents were strict Catholics, -this was mostly my Mother's influence. I hated going to church and disliked the priests. My mother believed they were holy men. I was constantly conflicted from what I heard versus what I experienced. The priests taught us any sexual desire was bad unless it started after you were married. Later, well after my mother died, the pastor of the church was defrocked for molestation, and also one of the other "holy" priests as well. At 17 when my mom died I rejected wholesale this upbringing although it took me quite a few years and some wrong turns to figure out a new value structure. To this day I have a strong dislike for organized religion and I'm sure I haven't fully consciously processed all the anger I felt towards my mother for the indoctrination I went thru growing up... Her death was very painful for me but also a great liberation.

18/9/07 11:13 AM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

Our minds can certainly do that. In fact, the solo state leads to self-discovery as one thing becomes another unimpeded. There are big advantages to being alone and not lonely, not looking for another for completion

I completely agree. I was a big sacrifice for me to get married because I had come to love being alone. Not just accept it, but loved it. This reminds me again of the Tao: "The greatest gift is following the Way, alone."

18/9/07 11:18 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Pen!!! So good to hear from you out there! I mean here. Would you believe it? A Krispy Kreme doughnut has never touched my lips. You DO NOT have to eat one. In fact, I highly recommend not touching one. Way too sticky for me.

antipodes
Great word.

I'll be waiting for your next objective report.:-)

18/9/07 2:22 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Mpk.
I am simply stunned by your honesty. This is what I've been waiting for. The truth about your feelings toward your mother is something I rarely, rarely, run across. I can't express enough how much I appreciate this.

I grew up believing that the world would have been a peaceful utopia if only men weren't in it.

Yep. It's insane. Explains a lot about the horror of the female icons today and what women are doing to try and compete with men. The madness of it all. Women raise the children and are largely responsible for these things as you so beautifully point out. Their power can be excrutiating to experience. Men and women are equally good and bad. Everybody knows that deep down. The blame is unbearable to me and the pretense of goodness. I want so much to witness progress before I die.

Her death was very painful for me but also a great liberation.

My experience exactly with all the deaths, no matter what the relationship was in life. I also celebrate their own liberations when they die.

This is the kind of truth that helps people develop as opposed to the negativity I usually encounter and the candy coating elsewhere, all misplaced. Horrible petty arguments, dishonesty with the self, on and on and on, then idealizing of jackasses. People not being honest about their likes and dislikes of people. Playing games with it all, one against the other. Oh it's too much to describe. No one wants to admit their parts in the horrors. I'm always stymied and trying to reroute until I find the clarity and truth from people I know they are all capable of. What does it take?

My optimism is not based on vacuous experience and wishful thinking. It's based on the pain you desribed so well. Knowing I surmount these things, thrive, and look forward to more life are what lift my spirits. Honesty is vital. I think hope springs from it.

This reminds me again of the Tao: "The greatest gift is following the Way, alone."

Thank you, my friend.

18/9/07 2:49 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I woke up feeling good today after many hard days. These comments are fantastic. For years I've been trying to get these truths across and I am so relieved. I know more than ever how much I want to cut the crap from my life. I often get to this point of reaching my limit, my saturation point, but maybe this time it's especially potent and will stick. I was hoping for this result with Pluto through Sagittarius. You just can't imagine.

I had struggles with my mother but she did recognize my honesty. I was honest enough to leave the family, not because I didn't care for them, but because I just had to to pursue my destiny. They always eventually understand. They're good people and I don't have a lot of resentment or bitterness, probably because of their innate understanding. But none are as truthful as I am.

I see far too much, not knowing what to do. What to say when I know and people don't want to know, yet are seeking some of my insight anyway.

I encountered such dishonesty in the world that I felt forced to shut up as I went. Then I tried to play the games and fit in, and have still been trying until I blow a gasket. The clutter of it all. Eventually I will be brave enough to be myself regardless of the risk. When the Tao comes home and I know completely that together and alone are equal.

Yes. This is so great a relief.

18/9/07 3:16 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...

The long red nails certainly reveal the predatory nature of women, which is why I never believed what they say about gender

It's interesting to remember my childhood psychology... Based on my mother's teaching, such a woman could only be dressed or appear that way because she was forced to by men or coerced by the expectation of men. Also, of course, any sexual attraction that I might feel toward such an image is completely unnatural, evil and the part of the cause of the downfall of the world. The Virgin Mary was really the only allowable way to think about women in general (later it was with amazement and even some joy that I discovered thee other aspects of the Great Mother archetype). So in me it produced this weird state where I was both guilty of creating such a woman, and doubly damned for responding to any such imagery. As a defense mechanism, I spent almost all my childhood reading books. I lived completely in their pages where I didn't have to deal with the "reality" of my own nature. Of course, my reading threw the whole system into serious doubt, increasing the tension, driving me even further inward.

18/9/07 3:38 PM  
Blogger jm said...

such a woman could only be dressed or appear that way because she was forced to by men or coerced by the expectation of men.

One of the biggest lies of all time. Blame men. Who's foolin' who?

So in me it produced this weird state where I was both guilty of creating such a woman, and doubly damned for responding to any such imagery.

I have never heard the male pedicament expressed so well.

Of course, my reading threw the whole system into serious doubt

Definitely serious.

I feel the same away about the other female archetypes, ancient cultures, and the whole schmear. They're all false. We're all a unique combination and when we stop comparing ourselves to these images we will find ourselves.

I've reached my limit with this ancient teaching crap. How do you think we got to this point?

The blaming of men for the oppression of women is flawed. It's complicated. Women have encouraged their cloistering so they wouldn't have to have worldly resonsibility, but it didn't work out quite right. Now they want out into this man's world and they're not getting that right either.

The biggest lie is how powerless women have been made by men, and your words, mpk, are a testament to that.

We're all lost children.

18/9/07 3:51 PM  
Blogger jm said...

If only for one moment, one tiny speck in time, people would look truthfully at what is really oppressing them. Is it the corporate male elite? The church? Or their own greed. The whole human problem of lust. Be logical.

How did the Silk Road get built? By some men alone? Or by women, too, who lusted after exotic trinkets and scents and wouldn't mind murder to get them.

Working women? Toiling, sweating, and producing? They're so supreme? A trip back in a time machine would give you the answer to that.

One hour in a grocery store with a mother and her children reveals more than I would want for a year.

The sanctity of motherhood and women is as false as the benevolence and protection of the father.

We are all on our own.

18/9/07 3:59 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And here I am again at the threshold of speaking the truth about it all. The 99% I've withheld. What to do? I know too much. What am I doing here? Listening to others try and fill in the space with all that stuff. My head.

18/9/07 4:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And the problems with humanness, sexuality, shame, guilt, etc., are no one's fault. Blame is the biggest escape of all. Each one of us has to correct it within the self.

18/9/07 4:08 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...

And here I am again at the threshold of speaking the truth about it all.

Oh please just continue to do so! This is the only place online I would even consider posting what I just did. I feel raging universe is a place where real transformation is possible. Even though this is online, what goes on here is very real.

18/9/07 4:26 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...

I feel the same away about the other female archetypes, ancient cultures, and the whole schmear. They're all false. We're all a unique combination and when we stop comparing ourselves to these images we will find ourselves.

I've reached my limit with this ancient teaching crap. How do you think we got to this point


An amazing thought, yet at the same for me it was a great expansion of possibility to see that female archetypes had even been portrayed to include a negative side. Catholics split women into Virgin Mary & the Devil (with no real possible good connotation for the devil) but within the religion there is no public awareness of this fact. To encounter revered images of destructive female power (such as Kali) was very helpful for me in coming back to balance.

18/9/07 4:33 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...

I've reached my limit with this ancient teaching crap. How do you think we got to this point

JM, I think what you're expressing here is a desire to cleanse the collective unconscious. Can it be done? I think so. I have some thoughts on this but it will have to wait until after work.

18/9/07 4:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Omg, mpk.

I'm afraid, and feel like I have to tread carefully. I'm holding my tongue right now on something I feel has to be said but the repercussions will be huge. I need a minute. The truth bombards me every moment and I have to struggle with what to say. I am terrified of hurting people, and I still have to figure out what to do.

I've always had personal relationships where I could express these things, but the world at large is daunting. And here I am with a big curve thrown into my life. About to get bigger it seems.

I am unique and I stand out, trying most of all to be my best. Everyone else is unique and talented, too, but they cover it up trying to belong giving praise to what doesn't deserve it and ignoring what really does. When I say some of the things I do people can become horrifyingly enraged so I have to be prepared. I will learn as I go. Some want me to speak, some don't. The decision is ultimately mine.

I am so deeply pleased that you are revealing these facts at Raging Universe. It will help me in my goal of making it all real, the transformation tangible. The talk connected to life. Everything connected to life.

Time to face my fear.

18/9/07 4:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

JM, I think what you're expressing here is a desire to cleanse the collective unconscious. Can it be done? I think so. I have some thoughts on this but it will have to wait until after work.

I am happy.

18/9/07 4:46 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...

When I say some of the things I do people can become horrifyingly enraged so I have to be prepared. I will learn as I go. Some want me to speak, some don't.

So far I have been delighted. You have written things I haven't seen in print before but I know them. You haven't gone out of my depth yet, I can go much further. I still recognized more though. I am delighted. I long for the challenge, should you choose to reveal more. If not, your privacy and your decision I accept without question.

18/9/07 4:52 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I can go much further. I still recognized more though. I am delighted. I long for the challenge, should you choose to reveal more.

I will. There is no limit. I'm hoping with all my might that I don't backtrack after this and invite the empty plastic filler so eager to come in and disconnect the line. When I made my decision to cut out the other blogs, I was conflicted at first, but now the full truth of why I did it is revealed. I'm going to focus like never before. Consolidate my strength. Find my courage.

Your comments are very important to me, mpk. You know that, though. You know a lot.

There is so much to look forward too.

18/9/07 5:02 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Mpk, you reminded me so quickly and accurately about paying attention to myself and the real and important things. Tuning most of it out. I resisted only for a second.:-) I'm back on track.

18/9/07 5:06 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

The way I see it, each person who steps out of false dichotomies automatically shifts things further. It's possible to switch off the television drama, as it were.

People project into the past to find answers, but neither the real answers nor the lost power is there. People imagine that their religions have solid authoritative ground because of the temporal histories in which they believe. Watching how the televised drama opens isn't as good as noticing that there's a on-off switch.

I'm not raised in a specific religious milieu, although I've looked inside the mirrored labyrinths of particular persons' worldviews. Some people are just not going to easily escape. They have lessons to learn along the way first.

"I see far too much, not knowing what to do. What to say when I know and people don't want to know, yet are seeking some of my insight anyway."

Yes, I know. :-) You have big eyes which take in much information. That's why I said something about the aspects of the seer and of equanimity being in balance so that one is able to progress without feeling too destabilized or stressed.

I sometimes think my best friend is my best friend because he's still around despite the things I say or don't say. ;-) Our differences, such as they are, don't matter to us. You can tell who you really are by the people in your life.

18/9/07 6:26 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...


I sometimes think my best friend is my best friend because he's still around despite the things I say or don't say



Kadimiros, this reminds me of a hit song by the Indie Band, Modest Mouse. I love this song because it expresses that same idea, just to be able to try to express, that it's ok to make a mistake... we understand beyond the words...:

Modest Mouse - Float On Lyrics


I backed my car into a cop car the other day
Well he just drove off sometimes life's ok

I ran my mouth off a bit too much oh what can i say

Well you just laughed it off it was all ok

And we'll all float on ok
And we'll all float on ok
And we'll all float on ok
And we'll all float on any way well

Well, a fake Jamaican took every last dime with a scam
It was worth it just to learn some sleight-of-hand
Bad news comes don't you worry even when it lands
Good news will work its way to all them plans
We both got fired on the exactly the same day
Well we'll float on good news is on the way

And we'll all float on ok
And we'll all float on ok
And we'll all float on ok
And we'll all float on alright
Already we'll all float on
Now don't worry we'll all float on
Alright already we'll all float on
Alright don't worry we'll all float on

And we'll all float on alright
Already we'll all float on
Aliright don't worry even if things end up a bit to heavy
we'll all float on alright

Already we'll all float on
Alright already we'll all float on
Ok don't worry we'll all float on
Even if things get heavy we'll all float on
Alright already we'll all float on
Don't you worry we'll all float on
All float on

18/9/07 7:38 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

Back to this idea of the gods, goddesses and bloody images of the ancients...

This brings me to an area I've studied a bit... the work of Stanislav Grof into non-ordinary states of consciousness. At one point Stan was recounting how patients he's worked with in non-ordinary states of consciousness see terrifying and brutal images from the inquisition, witches sabbat, dionysian rituals etc stuff they have never been exposed to in real life but is "out there".
A weary student asked him "how long do we have to keep seeing this stuff? Is there any way to get beyond it?" Stan basically answered that there may be some way to cleanse the collective unconsciousness of our brutal history, that processing the images on an individual level in some way can free the collective as well, if enough people do it. He then stated that "It's still an archetype though, you can't get rid of it entirely". So I gather from this that it might be possible to process these brutal periods of our collective history, of these terrible images to and extent that the archetypal level of consciousness may someday actually be elevated in some sense. The experiences of tapping in may become less brutal. I don't know enough here but... the idea fascinates me that the rebellion against history and itss images and archetypes and the conscious processing and accepting of the information could actually transform us all.

18/9/07 7:49 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

It's important for my last comment to understand is that Stan's work indicates the images have an ontological reality in our collective sphere of consciousness. He has documented people having visions of this stuff that have zero exposure to it in everyday life. It's in our consciousness as a byproduct of history despite any physical recording thru media so we have to transform it thru healing ourselves.

18/9/07 7:57 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I love this song because it expresses that same idea, just to be able to try to express, that it's ok to make a mistake... we understand beyond the words..."

Ooh! A song. The lyrics are perfect. I love hearing a new song. Now I'm going to find out what it sounds like. Thank you so much. :-)

18/9/07 7:59 PM  
Blogger jm said...

What a start.

The way I see it, each person who steps out of false dichotomies automatically shifts things further. It's possible to switch off the television drama, as it were

That's where our responsibility lies.

People project into the past to find answers, but neither the real answers nor the lost power is there.

No. Nor is it in the future.

the aspects of the seer and of equanimity being in balance so that one is able to progress without feeling too destabilized or stressed.

I will master this.

I'm really beginning to enjoy these conversations.

18/9/07 9:39 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

Oh geez, this really is happening isn't it? ..this "dying to be heard". Did you folks see the article about the Nebraska senator who is suing god?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/ap_on_fe_st/odd_suing_god;_ylt=Av93mS2uw6ymp2xGcgbAdH.s0NUE

18/9/07 10:12 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I never heard of the band, mpk. Good name. Modest Mouse. Good lyrics. "We'll all float on OK". It's the truth.

Stan basically answered that there may be some way to cleanse the collective unconsciousness of our brutal history, that processing the images on an individual level in some way can free the collective as well, if enough people do it. It's still an archetype though, you can't get rid of it entirely.

I completely agree with this. I think even one individual doing it is enough. That's all we CAN do.

The archetypes need to remain as reminders but we do have conscious choice as to how we develop. More and moreso as we evolve, I think. We still carry these behaviors inside ourselves but we have this vast and complex mind that can go the primitive frightened survival route or the more thought-out civilized one. There are actually supposed to be two response routes in the body for each of these choices.

I don't think we even have to worry about the history as long as the actions of the moment are not brutal. That will neutralize the history given enough time. The biggest problem now is each person facing the truth of her own brutality. Very very hard to do. I think our brains will reflect these choices in time and it will be easier to take the non-bloody path. The human brain at present is wired for blood and guts, so each person looking away from it, will help get us there.

The ancients were drenched with superstition and we have advanced a little from that.

the images have an ontological reality in our collective sphere of consciousness. He has documented people having visions of this stuff that have zero exposure to it in everyday life. It's in our consciousness as a byproduct of history despite any physical recording thru media so we have to transform it thru healing ourselves.

Completely agree.

There are ways. One thing is to understand that we all are capable of these acts but now are given divergent paths to choose from. Especially in this modern day when survival skills are well-developed (I think), and we are gradually moving from a perception of everyone as enemy. It goes back to the solo path and the courage to leave the crowd continuing on the brutal path. It's not just the ones with guns either. the emotional brutality is addictive.

The brain being wired for the negative has been on my mind a lot. we have to make gentle behaviors habitual and this will create new neural pathways, thus altering the initial responses. All evolution, it seems. But each on of us is a cell in the whole organism with a mini consciousness of its own.

I think you, mpk, exhibit a very interesting collective behavior with all your Aquarius. Different from most others I've witnessed. The way you belong to the group but know your separation so well. Your vital distinctiveness. Your real freedom. this is what we need.

18/9/07 10:12 PM  
Blogger jm said...

On my way to check out the latest flap with God!

18/9/07 10:13 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

Here is the correct URL. Blogger does not seem to like long URLs.

http://www.shorten.ws/?r=1hbm

18/9/07 10:15 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The page has expired, Yahoo said. Sounds interesting as Pluto in Sagittarius gets this through. That's the problem with God in histoty. He's too human.

I just had a great idea. We should take God to court and have a good cross examination.

18/9/07 10:19 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Blogger is very persnickety.

18/9/07 10:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

LOL!!!!

He's seeking a permanent injunction against the Almighty

18/9/07 10:25 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Oh, good one. Very funny. LOL!

19/9/07 5:15 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

JM, I really rely on reading these conversations for keeping faith in myself. Seeing you all are here exchanging ideas and knowledge assures me there are receptive ears for essential thought. Bravery expressing true self, while a challenge, is so necessary in this digital age. Call it Mars energy or what you will, it is perhaps the only thing that ensures knowledge comes through the wire without false attachments. It requires facing the fears keeping you from articulating the thought.

Recently I have been contemplating the brutal selfishness of my natal Mars conjunct my Sun. My desire for understanding this develops from attempting to minimize unintended fallout from expressing myself, a desire for waging peace in my life, not conflict. Only it is my experience that in minimizing this Martial brutality the reflection of that energy is strongest as others ignoring what I have to say even when I am adressing their concerns exactly. It is unlikely this is the case for anyone else who does not have this signature, but for me it reminds me that honest expression requires no restraint.

19/9/07 11:34 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Nathan, what a great comment.

honest expression requires no restraint.

A potent statement. Sometimes I think fear holds the honesty back and then it ultimately gets unleashed with major force. This is a lot to ponder. Maybe the force is necessary for penetration sometimes since it meets with so much resistance. I had that experience with a Mars-Jupiter person, who got the truth through to me in no uncertain terms. Often. I'm forever glad.

Seeing you all are here exchanging ideas and knowledge assures me there are receptive ears for essential thought.

This has been the important surprise and it keeps energizing me. Finding people with this scope of perception and desire for "essential" communication has been a huge reward for my efforts.

it is perhaps the only thing that ensures knowledge comes through the wire without false attachments.

So beautifully put.

I'll be back momentarily with some thoughts on Mars. There are sound reasons for this aggressive, vital, raw force of thrust in the character. I have it with Aries rising. Conflict is the basis of creation, I think.

19/9/07 2:30 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This has sparked so much thought that I'm going to do a blog entry.
Btw, the Mars-Jupiter I mentioned was in Taurus.

A lot of it is guilt. Don't we already have enough? We're infused with it from the start and then when we express something unacceptable in their terms we feel guilty about that, when often it's just their reaction to a truth that previously was resisted. The initial reaction is self defense, but later they think about it and often gain from the interaction. Sometimes in ways we don't know and never hear about. And still our warrior lessons continue. The lessons involve aggression vs. self-defense. Both will be called upon in Mars people.

the brutal selfishness of my natal Mars conjunct my Sun.

Nothing wrong with that. The only thing wrong with it is trying not to own it. That's where the trouble starts. It's there for a reason. People who have selfish destinies have to learn to stick up for themselves and sometimes this is the only way, especially with a SN in Scorpio who is forever relinquishing power in serious ways others don't comprehend.

Mars is not to be played with. It's as potent a force as there is and very sharp. True, it's dangerous, but those of us who have it also know how to handle it. Others invite it but have to adjust and recover from what you call brutality, but might be necessary. The receiver is just as responsible, always.

Only it is my experience that in minimizing this Martial brutality the reflection of that energy is strongest as others ignoring what I have to say even when I am adressing their concerns exactly.

This is what Mars does. Surgical precision. The pain is part of the cure. It's often quick and completely effective. Trying to hold back Mars is more dangerous than its expression, unless you have Saturn involved. Then you have the tools for withholding it. Sun conjunct Mars is meant to illuminate the potency. Fuel it. It will take many forms. Restraint is not the answer. Possibly driving it well, is the solution. Directing it.

I am forever trying to communicate the incredible force of Mars and the knowledge almost always meets with resistance. As it's supposed to be, I'm sure. I also can't get across the value of selfishness in some cases. Necessary to survival. So if you want to sacrifice your life, go ahead and be unselfish. You won't be around to talk about it.

You can't go on to the Pisces empathy without having this established first, not to be questioned.

Would that we could surgically remove this troublesome Mars potency with Mars itself, but it's not going to happen. We are probably overcoming dangerous timidity. Taurus adds sustained application and the problems might come in, not from needing to let go, but the necessity of keeping it up. Keeping the grip and continuing. NN in Taurus. SN in Scorpio has let go of enough.

19/9/07 4:26 PM  
Blogger Don said...

Nathan and JM, this is very similiar territory for me. i have this Libra SN in the 12 th that is so pleasing, accomodating and even self sacrificing - but these days that only works for so long.
at a certain point - when i have extended much understanding and patience, and it is still falling on deaf ears, the aries NN, mars, and Scorpio rising kicks in. and it is not even anger or rage anymore - just an authenticity - an unrestrained honest expression -and whatever follows from there is good. some are drawn closer, others are cut away.

20/9/07 10:30 AM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

I am experiencing Mars right not to an uncomfortable degree, I feel somewhat combative. It's really hitting me hard and I really appreciate all this insight here.

20/9/07 1:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Don, I hear you so loud and clear I can barely stand it. Thank you for this contribution.

i have this Libra SN in the 12 th that is so pleasing, accomodating and even self sacrificing - but these days that only works for so long.
at a certain point


I've been working with this for years and it exasperates me, the need for approval. It gets downright tragic. I know so well how powerful the SN is and sharing this does feel good. Sometimes I think I'll never get free, but there are moments. Just in the last week some things have gotten through to me. Again, thank you so much.

some are drawn closer, others are cut away.

Exactly.

not even anger or rage anymore - just an authenticity

The ideal.

20/9/07 1:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I am experiencing Mars right not to an uncomfortable degree, I feel somewhat combative.

I was going to post on this as a result of nathan's comment and I'll finish it and get it up.

You and I, mpk, have a similar setup with the NN1 and Mars involved with Neptune which sublimates the aggression, seeking gentleness. There's lots to say on the subject, especially since Uranus is on his way to your Mars. I'd love to get your insights a little later.

This is good news about the information helping. I find astrology works best as a tool for understanding what's unfolding even if pain can't be prevented. I think it might be diminished a bit with the knowledge. Or a path through is illuminated.

20/9/07 1:46 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Another post on the NN Aries might be a good idea right now with the full moon just ahead. I feel the NN so close I can almost hold it, but still the nagging over-concern with others pulls. If I only knew the exact place to go to get rid of it! Oh, my limits are speaking. Maybe they'll win this time!

20/9/07 1:51 PM  

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