Thursday, January 11, 2007

Time Travel

People and time. They build monuments and elevate the face of it into the heavens. They shackle themselves to it by the wrist. They race with it and fear its progress. They repeat all day that they don't have enough, as if the amount really changed. They can't fit into and can't get out of it.
This relationship has always amused me. The incessant battle with time and the impossibility of victory. The willingness to imprison themselves forever in its grip.
Tonight I traveled outside this confinement briefly, giving myself more than enough hours and minutes, and to my amazement, I felt an extraordinary relaxation immediately. Life took on a different tone. I was so calm, in fact, that gassing up the car and washing the windows bothered me not at all. I enjoyed the sparkle and finished the task slowly and with pleasure.

It's a trick. How to travel at my own pace and still participate in the world around me that whips itself silly with its treasured invention. I definitely do not want to race through the day as they do, trying to beat the clock, and missing almost everything. No. I will find an alternative route.
Illustration by Chris Van Allsburg.

119 Comments:

Blogger Tseka said...

Beautiful JM, set the first paragraph to music and you have a song.

Your thoughts about time and living consciously remind me of the book Playing Ball on Running Water based on Morita therapy which flows out of Zen Buddhism. I have given away more copies of this book than i can remember to clients who were overwhelmed by their lives. The key is just as you describe, doing the practical, like washing windows, with full consciousness.

This is a wonderful post.

11/1/07 7:53 AM  
Blogger Neith said...

Yes, jm, this is a very timely post for me . . . a reminder of what's really important. Gotta remember to breathe & relax into the moment, duh!!! :-)

11/1/07 10:07 AM  
Blogger Neith said...

tseka . . . with Mars moving to conjunct Pluto at 27Sag this weekend, you may notice an increase in activity, tension or just that "dense" feeling that comes with an activated Pluto. Hopefully this will bring new & valuable insights up from the depths for all of us with late degree Suns!

11/1/07 1:16 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Ooh, a boat!

A boat out of water, but unlike a fish.

Riding on invisible means of support. Propelled by unseen winds.

11/1/07 1:50 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The key is just as you describe, doing the practical, like washing windows, with full consciousness.

This is of utmost important to me. The book you recommend sounds perfect, tseka. This approach gets more attractive as things progress.

Gotta remember to breathe & relax into the moment

I think that's a mantra of yours neith, and I love it.

Riding on invisible means of support

Love this thought. Going to keep it, if you don't mind. And Happy Birthday, my wonderful genius friend! I missed it by a few but I didn't know what galaxy you were traversing and didn't want to bring you back from your carriage by unseen winds. I'm glad to see you have safely returned.

These lively days are a great test of philosophy. I welcome them.

11/1/07 3:01 PM  
Blogger jm said...

OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG!!!!
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!
OMIGOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Denver's got the Democratic Convention.

It better be a great nominee or I'm taking the next boat up!

11/1/07 3:17 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Going to keep it, if you don't mind."

Sure...I forget where I first heard the phrase "invisible means of support", but it seems to fit.

Poet Kathleen Raine wrote with mythic resonance about invisible ways and means:

There is an invisible way across the sky,
Birds travel by that way, the sun and moon,
And all the stars travel that path by night.


"And Happy Birthday"

LOL, you remembered! I was working, naturally. Webcasting a healthcare industry conference. It fell on my birthday this year, and I kept my appointment with the world one more time.

"Denver's got the Democratic Convention."

Well, well! Congratulations! I think that sounds really cool. :-) Apparently, Howard Dean thought so, too.

11/1/07 3:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There is an invisible way across the sky,
Birds travel by that way, the sun and moon,
And all the stars travel that path by night.


Beautiful. I've always thought that our aircraft interfered with these patterns. But maybe I'm underestimating nature and life. The ability to adjust.
I do think it disrupts sonar communication though. Still, everything adapts. Even humans.

Webcasting a healthcare industry conference

That sounds important. Maybe interesting.

I have mixed feelings about the convention, but now they are meaningless. There is a reason. It certainly will be exciting since the city still behaves like a town, and the people will all be in this together enjoying it. The town loves to celebrate so they'll probably be as happy as the Super Bowl victory days. They're going to love it! Lots of events will be created of their own. And it will be a test of our ability to handle this kind of thing, which is brand new.

The best part of all is the proof of the changing demographic in the west. It's here now in full incarnation. Politics in the country is on the verge of big change.

11/1/07 3:40 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Speaking of birthdays....

The longitude of the natal Sun on my birthdate is 17 degrees 53 minutes, or the eighteeth degree of Capricorn, and the transiting Moon in Cancer was exactly opposite (to the very minute -- this kind of thing is not unknown for me) when I had that dream about the red and white streams of energy flowing out from the burning being asked to protect the young.

Remember I was thinking American flag because of the stripes, but more recently, I looked up the Sabian symbol for the eighteenth degree of Capricorn: "From the proud new warship of Britannia in token of her maritime power flies the Union Jack in calm dignity."

Curious coincidence of form and color!

The symbol for the eighteenth degree of Cancer is "On all sides is the bustle of the barnyard, and its old-fashioned and natural life a hen clucks among [or scratches for] her chicks."

I noticed that Nancy P. has Jupiter in the eighteenth degree of Aries: "An empty hammock hangs between two lovely trees." Perhaps it oculd be taken as a symbol of opportunities for balance to be found in the field of space that forms between two polarities. Or maybe it means rest and relaxation deferred! :-)

11/1/07 3:59 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Colorado is a bellwhether state indicating future political trends. What's interesting about this, is that the disagreement was about the lack of local labor unionization and the hotels.

Unions have not had power in this formerly Republican stronghold. We now have a democratic legislature for the 1st time in over 50 years. And as of the last election, a Democratic governor. Montana is headed the same way.

It's especially amazing considering how conservative it used to be. The labor union flap can only be an indication of increasing power for the workers coming up for the country.

I read an economic report that said the same thing. The shrinking labor force coming up will give workers more leverage.

So the movement and balancing of elements can be seen, thankfully.

11/1/07 4:04 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The best part of all is the proof of the changing demographic in the west. It's here now in full incarnation."

It's about time. :-)

And that reminds me of another Raine poem.

Change

Change
Said the sun to the moon,
You cannot stay.

Change
Says the moon to the waters,
All is flowing.

Change
Says the fields to the grass,
Seed-time and harvest,
Chaff and grain.

You must change said,
Said the worm to the bud,
Though not to a rose,

Petals fade
That wings may rise
Borne on the wind.

You are changing
said death to the maiden, your wan face
To memory, to beauty.

Are you ready to change?
Says the thought to the heart, to let her pass
All your life long

For the unknown, the unborn
In the alchemy
Of the world's dream?

You will change,
says the stars to the sun,
Says the night to the stars.

11/1/07 4:09 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The longitude of the natal Sun on my birthdate is 17 degrees 53 minutes, or the eighteeth degree of Capricorn, and the transiting Moon in Cancer was exactly opposite (to the very minute -- this kind of thing is not unknown for me)

Heavens. I knew how big this Full Moon was, but just how big? Sheese.

The 29 degree Cancer Moon of the the new Congress says it all. (Posts below on this subject).
The fact that you had this lunation on your birthday verifies how I feel about you as a protector of the collective, combining both polarities. Good one to lead us into the Cancer/Capricorn years. Your Moon/Jup is also a major factor, being in Aquarius, making it collective.
Moon joops are extremely nurturing.

There will be great emphasis on preservation and protection of the young. The war in the Middle East is over now and has come home to our internal war with the Mars retrograde progression. It's being wrapped up as the debate in the government is even surpassing my expectations right now. Just the beginning, but there will be much less sacrifice of young'uns in exotic places.

Nancy Pelosi is the symbol. A strong leader, too. Peole automatically follow her.

11/1/07 4:15 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The shrinking labor force coming up will give workers more leverage.
     So the movement and balancing of elements can be seen, thankfully."


Sounds like it! I'd be pleased to see more of that.

11/1/07 4:16 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I like these Raine poems. Who is this poet? I've heard the name but I'm not familiar with the work.

11/1/07 4:18 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There has been a huge change with the new Congress, but it will take time to manifest.

This is not sudden. For many many years the country has been dominated by this male aggressive plundering bunch, and fortunately, with the extreme display of this administration, the country has seen it. The cover was blown and this was the most amazing thing for me to witness these years, and also the most reassuring. Out in the open gives me optimism.

The restructuring ahead with Pluto in Capricorn will be a building from the bottom up, as Saturn knows is best.

It appears to me that the top has already fallen, but it takes a minute for the group to catch up.

11/1/07 4:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Perhaps it oculd be taken as a symbol of opportunities for balance to be found in the field of space that forms between two polarities.

This is definite. The rise of women to power is not just Nancy. It will be apparent soon.

11/1/07 4:25 PM  
Blogger jm said...

One of the reasons I'm so optimistic right now (although this subject to vacillation with the Pisces/Sagittarius square all year), is that the rise of women is after a very long haul and a long time on the fringes.

The natural balancing of forces due to laws of physics indicate that the rise will be equal to the strength of the banishment. The elastic snap back will be something formidable.

11/1/07 4:33 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I once shot a wrist rocket at a woodpecker that was ruining my life. I missed him, of course, but got the metal pipe on my roof. What a sound! This reminds me of what's coming up.

11/1/07 4:38 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Some of her poems that I've come across have a strong mystical, mythic quality to them.

The Wikipedia entry on her describes her as a British poet who once taught Myth and Literature, and who related her life to a larger pattern.

Here's a PDF publication of some of her poems.

I've always liked her magical spell poems.

11/1/07 4:41 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"...the rise of women is after a very long haul and a long time on the fringes."

Yes, some changes may seem sudden to some, but that is because they weren't paying attention. :-) The long haul implies real historic trend, good in that it is sure to have deeper roots in culture.

11/1/07 4:51 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The long haul implies real historic trend, good in that it is sure to have deeper roots in culture.

Absolutely.
It's good to keep this in mind as the gasps of this war mongering group are reaching feverish pitch. In keeping with the outside of time mindfulness approach, the alternative pattern is also at work with the indications not quite as loud and violent, but just as strong and clear.

The conflict in the new polarity dynamic has started and friction, heat, and noise are high. But they will find their places as we go on.

The long haul also applies to the changing west as historic trend finds eqilibrium.

The interesting question to me is what purpose is served by the shift to progressive ideals after so long. What is it saying about the culture now?

11/1/07 4:59 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

It's darker when the Moon isn't out?

The politics of polarization work best at a sweet spot when the most reactive groups feel society slipping away from them. (If everyone thought similarly, there is insufficent potential for polarity.) Once upon a time, most people were like them. Now, old patterns are long abandoned by many. So they react in fear to the threat of change, and politicians play to them to win office. But the apparent height of their leverage is during and partly because of their long-term shrinkage.

I heard the Brits are still planning to pull their troops out. They're not interested in playing along anymore.

11/1/07 5:25 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Kadimiros! you are back, Happy Birthday mon cher!

Your namnsdag goes right along with your vision. 8 Jan Erland who is of the land (not the sea)
7 Jan August, having knowing eyes
9 Jan Gunnar, eager for battle.

I'm going to look at the poet and her poems thanks..

11/1/07 5:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

But the apparent height of their leverage is during and partly because of their long-term shrinkage.

Yes. Wait and see what unfolds. The New Moon in Capricorn, full Moon with the Saturn in Leo are going to be mighty interesting.

It's a death gasp for the current rulership. Saturn in leo is no slouch. Believe me, I know. You have to do a good job as a leader or you will be diminished. The more resistance, the greater the humiliation.
There are subtle signs everywhere which I will chart and post as we go.

Another thing to keep in mind is all the activity in Sagittarius in the GC. Good 'ol Mars included now. The half horse/man of the centaur is a taming of the beastial part as well as a powerful kick-off of the the human, more subdued and rational part.

I think we are seeing this now as the wildness, with Jupiter square Uranus is expressing, only to be reined in. It will be.

11/1/07 5:36 PM  
Anonymous Juju said...

I didn't know yet that Denver got the Democratic Convention. But I think it makes perfect sense -- the West is such an interesting place to be politically.
I loved your quotes and thoughts about time. And found the book Tseka recommended for 44cents on Amazon, though with postage its around $4. I'm more relaxed about it than I used to be, but still haven't quite found the place where I'm in a really comfortable relationship with it.
And I looked up Kathleen Raines' spell poems -- a beautiful concept. I'm going to print out her spell for sleep as I'm something of an insomniac. For a while I was writing a sonnet almost every day and tnen haiku. I think spell poems would be fun to try.

11/1/07 5:37 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Neith, Mars, Pluto, GC and Sun what could be more fun than that eh?

Sextile them to my asc,
last week i felt i was mostly spinning and spinning, a vortex of energy in a dense world. Seems to be lifting, letting go, the approach i've been noticing in astrology is sometimes more than jarring as a vibration than the direct hit, but who really knows Saturn is returning to my Pluto too, it's been an ongoing fun ride for a bit. Pluto, pluto....and more pluto

11/1/07 5:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It's darker when the Moon isn't out?

We have an especially serious shadowed Saturnian influence on this Moon. I think this is the start of the serious turn in general just ahead as Pluto crosses into Capricorn and real leadership is our concern.

The war was never meant to be a real one (29 degrees Pisces), but it served other purposes. The bedlam now is destroying the remnants of the agressive, dominant rulership, and what was left of the Republican attempted dictatorship. They are going down hard, so all of this is effecting that end result. Let it rip.

I heard the Brits are still planning to pull their troops out. They're not interested in playing along anymore

No. It's ours now, and already the changes are coming home. The country is mobilized as this last president is probably a uniter after all. And what better thing to be united on....the end of a war.

11/1/07 5:44 PM  
Blogger jm said...

44 cents!!!!! $4 dollar postage! That's hilarious, and within my artist's budget.

I'm more relaxed about it than I used to be, but still haven't quite found the place where I'm in a really comfortable relationship with it.

Lifetime pursuit. I think the beautiful part comes when we're very old. The Great Compensation. Time stretches for us then.

11/1/07 5:47 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Pluto, pluto....and more pluto

Good song idea!

Don't forget, though, that you are ruled by Uranus. Always a way out.

11/1/07 5:49 PM  
Blogger jm said...

it's been an ongoing fun ride for a bit.

Sobriety is just ahead.

11/1/07 5:50 PM  
Blogger jm said...

One more thing I'd like to say as Pluto is performing this grand finale in the GC.

Sagittarius is advertising, hype, propaganda, publishing, all media communication, truth, lies, and promotion.

Probably 99% of what you read and hear is false. This is going on big time right now with the WWIII hype. Pluto is trying to get us to think for ourselves and search for the truth. It is never what it appears to be as all factions manipulate events for their own ends, and spend most of their energy manufacturing fear. Fear is a great depressant when long tem and chronic, unrelated to reality. The great oppressor.

You, the individual, have your agenda too. Peering everywhere and readig between the lines. plus sharing observations with people you trust, are all good ideas now, as Pluto is revving up the game.

11/1/07 5:59 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Fear is a great depressant when long tem and chronic, unrelated to reality.

jm, do you suppose this is is the unseen component to the epidemic of depression in this country? We have the physical reasons for it, such as processed food that doesn't sustain the body adequately, but there are astral reasons, too, I'm sure of it. Could this fear you describe be the unseen factor?

11/1/07 6:14 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

ooooo....not to leave Uranus out, got my washing machine part today.....
agitation of the waters is expected by noon, if the wind dies down enough to run the solar drier - hang out the laundry.

11/1/07 6:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Could this fear you describe be the unseen factor?

Yes. With 4 planets in Cancer, we are very insecure. Overeating, sugary, fatty foods is the result. Then the addiction to television which is extremely depressing, although this is worldwide, possibly an Age of Pisces thing.
Also the urge to hide out and not face the outer world is Cancer, and let the parents take care of everything.

This is coming up for rectification as our 4 planets get the Pluto transit. Venus will be first...the pleasure principle and maybe a factor in the sweets.

Fear remains, it's natural, but a way to cope with it successfully is a requirement.
9/11 was the turning point, and now, Jupiter is almost exactly in that 12/14 degree spot in Sagittarius, where Saturn and Pluto were when it happened.

The event brought our underlying panic to the surface and now you can see it being revisited. With the new moon in Capricorn, I expect control to enter. It's hard to see progress, but it has happened.

The best we can do is control our own fear right now. It certainly can be done. We're clever creatures.

11/1/07 6:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

LOL!!!! Great one tseka! You are a true Uranian!

11/1/07 6:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It's so funny! Uranus rules high DRY areas!

11/1/07 6:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

These days are very interesting. We have a Scorpio Moon now and next, the Sagittarius Moon will conjoin the Mars and Pluto in Sagittarius. The start of next week. For the first time I sense that the whole group is getting the larger message. Every player now is important and all these events are necessary.

The war fear is actually becoming easier to digest, it seems, and the illusory nature of the threat is clearer. The leader of Iran is a Sagittarius, and this place has been a strong symbol. The chess board can be read if you look at it carefully.

I have theories about it which are forthcoming, but fear of war is useless at this point.

11/1/07 10:24 PM  
Blogger Donnie McDaniel said...

What a beautiful post JM! I made it to the rally today. WOW, there was a lot of people there. I saw one story that mentioned police estimated over 5000 people there. I did manage to meet a couple of the NOLA bloggers.

12/1/07 12:49 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Great news donnie. The people are finally motivated. It takes a lot. Most want to live undisturbed, and I don't blame them. Some progress will result. I believe good action leads to good results and the people will have their day.

12/1/07 1:45 AM  
Blogger Donnie McDaniel said...

The crowd estimate as with any other rally depends on where you see it at. I have seen both 3000 and 5000 used. One thing is for sure, Mayor Potato Head got punked out today!! Anderson Cooper happened to show up to do an update on the rebuilding and got there in time for the rally. He was supposed to have it on his show.

12/1/07 2:14 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Either number is high. The NOLA bloggers! This is the most wonderful development ever. This instant connection all around the country. It's like the first automobile or television. So fantastical.

12/1/07 2:37 AM  
Blogger jm said...

You are a symbol of what's happening around the country, donnie. A vet marching for peace. I understand the military people are very upset right now. Some big changes are going on, and I think our armed services are going to get a major overhaul coming up.

12/1/07 2:44 AM  
Blogger Donnie McDaniel said...

Yep, the NOLA bloggers! There are over 100 Louisiana bloggers listed on the Thinknola wiki site. I actually have links to many of them on my sidebar under Louisiana blogger links. I also have a link to the wiki site. I just found another blogger tonight that lives not far from me. The number keeps growing by the day.

I think Blanco might need to get her act together soon. The next stop might be the capital!! Even though I have not been feeling very good lately, I'm glad I made it there. The cough soon came back full force not long after getting back home.

12/1/07 3:02 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Happy Birthday mon cher!"

Merci! :-)

"Your namnsdag goes right along with your vision. 8 Jan Erland who is of the land (not the sea)
7 Jan August, having knowing eyes
9 Jan Gunnar, eager for battle."


Oh, yes? I read that Erland is a name similar to Orlando and Roland. I wonder how Erland came to be the name for January 8.

"I'm going to look at the poet and her poems thanks."

I found some more wonderful bits.

Here's two essays I came across by the esteemed Kathleen Raine.

* * *

All Roads Lead To India
India is not a country; it is a state of mind which gives birth to beauty and embodies the spirit.

* * *

An excerpt from a review of Transition to a Global Society (essays by various authors):

In the book's final chapter, Kathleen Raine analyses the arts as a sphere in which there is no need for a "transition" to a global society. Such a society is already here, as the world of the arts and the imagination is already a global society. It is a kingdom in which there are no frontiers, no competitive struggle for possession because there is no property,

"...if a hundred people listen to a symphony by Schubert or a play by Shakespeare, ...or memorise a psalm or sonnet, each one [owns]...the whole undiminished by no matter how many other participants....Because the imagination is universal, the vision of one...it thereby becomes the 'house of the soul'" (153).

There is, further, no limit to how many can dwell in such a house. "The universe of the imagination, for those who participate in it, remains a living unity in an ageless, deathless world with no frontiers, embracing past and future alike in the only universal reality, our shared vision of eternity" (156). This approach to the unifying quality of the arts is fresh, original and interesting. It advocates nothing concrete, but scores high on the "feel-good factor."


And a reprint of Raine's essay from that book: Global Unity and the Arts

12/1/07 9:22 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Such a society is already here, as the world of the arts and the imagination is already a global society. It is a kingdom in which there are no frontiers, no competitive struggle for possession because there is no property

How beautiful, and timely, as I sit here knowing the world will remain as disappointing as it is in its fractured confusion and grasp for commodities.

These are good thoughts. The world of imagination gets singular at times, and its good to know there are like minds somewhere in this infinite place.

12/1/07 10:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I am stunned beyond belief. Her thoughts on India. Thank you kadimiros. Good medicine.

When I reached India it seemed to me that this was the place to which I had always been travelling.

Yes. And have been travelling to ever since.

12/1/07 10:14 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is so uncanny. It makes me think there is a universal that artists plug into. Recognition of spots in the material where this imagination roots and can be sensed by the hypersensitive.

12/1/07 10:15 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There is so much expressed about India and the dilemma she describes.

But if people reach for Western style fulfillment materially, then something was missing, even though the spiritual practices were alive. This has always perplexed me.

Only a few can live a monk's life devoted to the realm of imagination. It must be that most are caught in an impossible in-between, longing for what they are missing. All bodies are missing something. It's said that the spirit is it, but I wonder.

12/1/07 10:27 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Kadimiros after you posted the poetry i was pretty much enthralled, i kept going, found those other links. I loved her "All Roads Lead to India". I thank you so much for introducing her.

Erland, Er is poetic and ancient for "who" who is land...of the earth...not of the sea. The energies of the Capricorn area on the Jule (wheel- stone circle) are assigned to Njord, father of Frey and Freya. His powers are associated with both land and sea; controlling the sea, storms. So at the 8 day Jan they are defining something, a power that is of the earth as opposed to the sea. Another namesdag for 8 jan, is Erhard: who is hard, which is another way of saying, a foreigner. Not sure how to interpret that.

How did they apply names? mostly it was energy assigned to point on the circle, a calendar defined by the polestar and transits of the stars, sun and moon. Some are gates of power. When the Romans first arrived the people of the Northwind hid a lot of esoteric knowledge in plain sight. Adding common names to the jule to hide the one's of power. It has been a fascination of mine for a little while and appears to have great connection to Astrology.

13/1/07 12:27 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

But if people reach for Western style fulfillment materially, then something was missing, even though the spiritual practices were alive. This has always perplexed me.

It occurs to me that two great lessons are simultaneously being learned. Self / not self.

Each alone is incomplete, the merging of the best of these two paths is perhaps the lesson we are moving into.

13/1/07 12:33 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I completely agree tseka, about the merging.

This is worth a post.

So at the 8 day Jan they are defining something, a power that is of the earth as opposed to the sea.

This goes back to a discussion we were having about Capricorn and its early Pisces connection...the goat with the fishtail, the original symbol.

13/1/07 3:05 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Ja jm a post would be good on east/west self/ not self.

It would be interesting to hear many points of view.

As to Njord who follows Ullr. I have read that he was considered to be the Frost Giant we call Saturn. A frost giant being a planet who still has consciousness but is frozen now in space..the great warriors went up against the frost giants in the epic tests. Of course humans aways won. Though maybe something was also sacrificed. Njord had legends that append to him as the green man and myths that are very similar to "St Nick" Interesting to think of Saturn as St Nick. I think Capricorn has a lot of feminine energy hidden behind the "corporate" saturnian one that is mostly offered up. For several years i have been looking for the "tomte" the image of the masculine that belongs to the period just after we cross the bridge of Ullr.

13/1/07 3:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Very very interesting. Capricorn is indeed a feminine sign in astrology. It has always intrigued me and I'm working on this blend....authority restriction, the heavy hand of fate, and all these things in terms of its feminine gender, yet masculine god as symbol. I would love to investigate this in terms of other myths.

A frost giant being a planet who still has consciousness but is frozen now in space.

This is excellent. Good time to look into this. That's why Uranus is so wild I think, as it breaks up this freeze.

"corporate" saturnian one that is mostly offered up.

Part of why I feel such a crusade in defense of great astrology. It needs expansion now.

13/1/07 3:52 PM  
Blogger jm said...

the great warriors went up against the frost giants in the epic tests. Of course humans aways won. Though maybe something was also sacrificed. Njord had legends that append to him as the green man

Something is always sacrificed in everything gained.
I just ran across something interesting about green. Will post.

13/1/07 3:55 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It might be the time to step up my astro crusade in favor of the mythological, psychological, and spiritual form of the science I love so much.

In the rush to solve personal problems or predict the future (both impossible), people gloss over the multilayered meaning and the real fascination. They use the cookbook definitions and listen to other strologers too much. Our own experience is the best teacher by far, but people aren't even paying attention to themselves. Obsessions with others, fear of their own internal mysteries.

I hardly even read aspects anymore in the traditional way. Not necessary. Bigger themes and stories are there, as well as answers to the little puzzles in these inner wheels.

13/1/07 4:02 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I especially would like to get input from these great minds here on Saturn and Capricorn. Disassociated from prejudiced thinking, if possible, and on to intuitive insight, and of course, experience.

13/1/07 4:23 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

8 is a number of Saturn, so numerologists believe.

Jonah Lehrer, the editor of Seed Magazine ("Science is Culture") said that, "once you begin to look, you find all these strange connections between art and science."

The poet Whitman wrote, "I sing the body electric," at a time when science disbelieved the Frankensteinesque "animal electricity" of Galvani's experiments. But it turned out to be true, the body and the brain is electrical.

Perhaps we are realizing that the truths of the spirit are not exactly separate from the physical and the flesh. As Lehrer says at the end of his talk, "artists mine experience for truths."

13/1/07 4:41 PM  
Blogger jm said...

artists mine experience for truths.

Beautiful. I also think truth mines artists.

I think we fully realize that spirit and flesh mingle, but what to focus on is the puzzle. The flesh houses the spirit, and this is a great contribution. I don't understand why we are led to denigrate this dimension. At the same time uplifting the spiritual to too lofty heights perhaps. Something unattainable, when actually, it's been right here all along. So why the contest?

I think ideally Saturn in its definition, crystallization of matter is pointing us to an appreciation of the physical realm and how to use it to its best advantage. Saturn is so sensible.

13/1/07 7:21 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

It seems that the contrasting idea that some have is that the flesh does not merely house the spirit. The dichotomy is questioned.

I tend to picture the body within the spirit, like the Earth within the atmosphere and finer spheres. The spirit is not in the body, though it can focus perception through the body, but the body is like a nexus of denser vibration within a field of consciousness. The consciousness contains its bodies, as soul memory can contain other selves or other lifetimes. And then, perhaps new selves grow from new bodies, like seeds spreading and growing, multiplying the richness of the inclusive spiritual domain.

In the language of astrology, I suppose one could say that Saturn develops the points of reference, by which we can begin to map and plan our experience. A map or plan being a useful tool, as long as we remember that the abstraction by itself is not all of the territory, and is (inter)dependent.

We can tell what is here and what is there, what was before this, and what is likely to come after. We begin to recognize relations. We can navigate space and time, and begin to manipulate its manifestations. To be creative is to perceive the future.

13/1/07 8:07 PM  
Blogger jm said...

the body is like a nexus of denser vibration within a field of consciousness.

Good definition.

I think the spirit seeks perception in the body through the senses. And maybe where information is passed from all of ancient memory. Kind of like glass being used in the sun to spark a fire.

We can navigate space and time, and begin to manipulate its manifestations.

This is why I always say that in Capricorn we become aware of our part in destiny, and thus our responsibility in our conscious choices.

13/1/07 8:24 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

So, one could posit the view of the evolutionary tree, for which all trees are part of the Tree of Life, and there has never been separate life since life began (assuming there was a beginning).

"So why the contest?"

On another level are the demands of physical survival and individuation. Eventually, as tseka implies, it will mostly be re-integrated.

13/1/07 8:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Up until Sagittarius, we are immersed in ourselves and our personal relationships. In Sag we move beyond and begin to question our roles in fate and destiny, but have little control. In Capricorn I think we start to develop these skills.

It will be interesting to see if the collective responds to the crossing of Pluto into Capricorn at the end of the year. I've often thought that this out of control atmosphere was a prelude to this as an inducement to self discipline. I see the first signs poppping up as the people sense a responsibility in participating in their governance, especially the young. I see new developments I haven't noticed before.

13/1/07 8:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

One theory I heard says that the individuation, manifesting in racial and ethnic diversification, was a fragmentation in order to find the universal again... alienation and separation building the longing to integrate.

13/1/07 8:35 PM  
Blogger jm said...

So in that sense, the demands of physical survival could build the longing for spiritual reunification.

The separations are always dogging us. We seek them, then want to merge again. It must be ongoing. One makes the other desirable. I think every time we make even the smallest human connection we are replaying the big unification. Just as important.

13/1/07 8:39 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"In Sag we move beyond and begin to question our roles in fate and destiny, but have little control. In Capricorn I think we start to develop these skills."

Could be! In the West, Saturn is Father Time, and some associate it with the earthy root chakra, but in some yogic teachings, Saturn is the ruler of the brow chakra or "third eye", which gives the power to dissolve karma, and is the center of clairvoyance transcending the usual perceptual bounds of time and space. One of that chakra's names is Ajna, which means "command." I think that it is associated with control, focus, absorptive concentration.

Mastery and skill come from the lessons of Saturn's school (hard knocks and all), and one who has learned well can more easily find ways to transcend the repetition of past mistakes or karma but, also, there seems to be the implication that it has a more direct effect on such things. I have sometimes found that with awareness of potential futures, one's attention and desire can shift the energy already present, and change outcomes.

13/1/07 8:54 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"It must be ongoing."

Like the dialectic of relative truth and absolute truth, a DNA spiral.

13/1/07 9:01 PM  
Blogger jm said...

which gives the power to dissolve karma, and is the center of clairvoyance transcending the usual perceptual bounds of time and space.

This is great. I think we're on to something. The karmic association with Saturn usually implies fatalistic confines. but I think you are correct, in that it is an opportunity to understand these confines, first, and be ready to participate in the mapping if we so choose. befor Uranus breaks the confines and chooses for us.

I do think this is a wonderful transition point. We can use the boundaries to our advantage and thus, be instrumental in the outcome of experience. These are wonderful thoughts.

I love the idea of participating in Saturnian decisions rather than being a victim, which is usually the case made. I'm sure this is not so. Only for the ones who won't take the responsibility. If this is done, it seems to me the freedom granted by Uranus will be earned and prepared for.

I completely love the idea of dissolving karma in Capricorn. New way of looking at it. Saturn then becomes a mirror revealing our standing, our progress, our maturity, our self determination.

13/1/07 9:12 PM  
Blogger jm said...

In the Saturnian awareness of time, it is often thought that we are trapped by this. Probably the opposite is true. We become aware of it in order to participate, control it if we want, and ultimately have the power to free ourselves from the imprisonment.

In fact, the whole idea of confinement and restriction in Capricorn is an attempt to lead us to awareness of our innate freedom. I'm sure of it.

13/1/07 9:17 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

ummhmmm order : chaos : order
Loki : Hel

Thinking of Capricorn and mythic Njord: Njord was of the Sky peoples, the ancient Vanir, as were Hel and Loki and Ullr. He was taken captive, held a prisoner of the Aesir (the ones who became the Viking warrior culture). After Oden (aesir) died, Njord became ruler of the Svea. All of this over a span of some thousand or more years. So, it is a repetition of patterns that are being described.

In his early form, Njord was shamanic, a controller of the weather. As father of Frey and Freya he is father of Fertility and Love. Later as ruler of Svea he would have been chosen by the people to lead them as the Svea practiced an early form of multi-cultural democracy. The Svea rode horses, the finest according to all accounts and controlled wealth and culture in the North.

So Njord would seem we have all the powers, magical and practical, at his disposal. Yet he did seem able to access them together in the same eras, shifting from magic to practical. I find this interesting.

13/1/07 9:20 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

that should have been Yet, he did not seem able to access them...

13/1/07 9:26 PM  
Blogger jm said...

While absorbing these thoughts and writing these words, a powerful feeling has come over me. Some sort of well being. I have to let it in, percolate, and speak to me. But there is something about the protective nature of Saturn (back to the protection of the earth with Jupiter) that is coming in.

It's not like the personal protection of the mother. It's a broader one than that. Perhaps the border of Saturn serves this purpose as we journey out into the transpersonal realm. The matrix we need in the search beyond the merely physical. That has to be in place. Maybe the preparation for expansion beyond the Jupiterian kind.

Could he be a guide on the bridge?

13/1/07 9:26 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Later as ruler of Svea he would have been chosen by the people to lead them as the Svea practiced an early form of multi-cultural democracy.

And I find THIS interesting. It blends with the Greek and Saturn ruling over a period of great cultural achievement. He was the perfect administrator and knew instinctively how to maintain order for the good of the whole.

As father of Frey and Freya he is father of Fertility and Love.

The goat, Pan, sexual connection.

The shift from the magical to the practical fits. I know Capricorns in my experience are well aware of the magical. They are among the most receptive to astrology I've encountered. I don't know one who has negated it.

I think part of the Saturnian nature is not to make a big display of the magical power, unless required.

13/1/07 9:35 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Could he be a guide on the bridge?

maybe

Or is he the Tomasthat awaits on the end of the bridge, just on the other side of the gate, the emptiness that is so empty that it is full, the fertile void ready to receive?

What comes to my mind is the image Joe offered the other day of the Ovum who decides which Sperm enters.

13/1/07 9:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yet he did not seem able to access them together in the same eras, shifting from magic to practical. I find this interesting.

Very interesting. Maybe in Aquarius, ruled by both Uranus and Saturn, this blend becomes more apparent. Maybe he has yet to learn how to "use" magic, which is why he appears so mysterious. Something up his sleeve.

13/1/07 9:39 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Ja, i see that too in Cap, there is among the Capricorns i know a tremendous ability in Math and Music again that pairing of practical / magical. Same source.

13/1/07 9:40 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Well, if I look on the Web, one finds compatible esoteric literature.

"Saturn is the orthodox and the esoteric ruler of Capricorn. One of the most potent of the four Lords of Karma, Saturn forces the individual to face up to the past and, in the present, prepare for the future. Such is the intention and purpose of karmic opportunity. From certain angles Saturn can be regarded as the Dweller on the Threshold that humanity has to face. The Dweller on the Threshold is illusion-glamour-maya, the sum-total of the forces of the lower self prior to illumination and initiation. The Dweller stands beside the Angel of Presence, the two representing the complex duality that is synthesised on the Path of Initiation.
     The great mountaintop experiences described in the Bible all relate to Capricorn."


I caution that my natal Saturn is in 0 degrees Aquarius (and my father's is in 29 Capricorn, by the way), so I may have a bias to the other side of Saturn.

13/1/07 9:43 PM  
Blogger jm said...

the emptiness that is so empty that it is full, the fertile void ready to receive?

Love that one.

The decider at the end of the bridge? That could be. There is a fatherly, godlike characteristic about him. And the connection with karma could be here.

It's a good thought, Saturn and the gate. Judgement. That certainly fits.

13/1/07 9:44 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"...Saturn then becomes a mirror revealing our standing, our progress, our maturity, our self determination. ...In fact, the whole idea of confinement and restriction in Capricorn is an attempt to lead us to awareness of our innate freedom. I'm sure of it."

All in all, well put. And when we're free internally, we will become free externally. I could suppose then that one's focus would be neither materialistic or reactively anti-materialistic.

13/1/07 9:48 PM  
Blogger jm said...

From certain angles Saturn can be regarded as the Dweller on the Threshold that humanity has to face.

The more we pursue this the more sense it makes. It's quite exciting. The threshold concept. The initiation factor.

I've always had an underlying trust in Saturn. I feel relieved when he's coming.

Very very VERY intersting on the 29/0, father/son.

I've been intrigued by your father and you. especially with his Sun on your North Node.

13/1/07 9:50 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

The on-line encyclopedia states, "In Norse mythology, Njord or Njordr is one of the Vanir and the god of wind, fertile land along the seacoast, as well as seamanship, sailing and fishing. The prose Edda says he has the power to calm the sea or fire."

13/1/07 9:53 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Dweller on the threshold, this fits the myth very well.

I love how these all tie together. Puzzle pieces.

I caution that my natal Saturn is in 0 degrees Aquarius (and my father's is in 29 Capricorn, by the way), so I may have a bias to the other side of Saturn.
Who better Kadimiros to offer insight?

13/1/07 9:55 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I could suppose then that one's focus would be neither materialistic or reactively anti-materialistic.

Absolutely perfect.

This discussion has brought to mind the fact that these signs are preparation for the next phase. I've always believed this, but these ideas state it so well.

The Jupiter excess. The wealth of the churches and all ruling factions. The abundance associated with Sagittarius. The illusive/abusive freedom that one knows is headed for a fall. All these things leading up to this understanding of the material in Capricorn. Then in turn the Capricorn squeeze releasing in the bigger freedom of Aquarius.

But Capricorn I think is an extra important step. The gate to the final quadrant.

13/1/07 9:57 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Unfortunately, I don't have a precise time/date of birth, either, but his natal Saturn is probably 29 Capricorn retrograde. My mother's Saturn is in Aquarius -- I think I mentioned before that it is conjunct her Sun.

13/1/07 9:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

god of wind, fertile land along the seacoast, as well as seamanship, sailing and fishing.

Wind...Aquarius
fertile land....Capricorn
seamanship....Pisces rising

he has the power to calm the sea or fire."

This I know from experience...:-)

Very intersting. The Capricorn bridge to Aquarius, you and your father. It is so strong that it seems to me there is a collective calling of importance here.

13/1/07 10:02 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And the mother too!!!

That is so consolidated. This year I think is pivotal as we enter the Capricorn years. The Neptune in Aquarius has been operating, but the Capricorn Pluto I think will be an important threshold, and I'm watching for advanced Capricorns to take the lead, especially the ones on the way to Aquarius as we enter the Age of A.

13/1/07 10:05 PM  
Blogger jm said...

What's fascinating about the 29 retrograde Capricorn Saturn (this man is advanced)...is that it is a backing away from the gate to Aquarius for a retrieval of some last minute Cap lesson. But his seed went ahead in you.

Very beautiful, mythological, and poetic. And are were just his kid!

13/1/07 10:08 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"It's not like the personal protection of the mother. It's a broader one than that. Perhaps the border of Saturn serves this purpose as we journey out into the transpersonal realm. The matrix we need in the search beyond the merely physical. That has to be in place. Maybe the preparation for expansion beyond the Jupiterian kind."

Well, some people seem to have exuberant confidence about anything. Sometimes they take on tasks beyond their actual abilities, then they fail or need powerful help from more skillful associates.

For me, I am most confident about things I know, and from knowing the scope of my abilities. When I say, "I can do this," it is a bare statement of fact, of proposals weighed both intuitively and rationally.

13/1/07 10:09 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Ja, i see that too in Cap, there is among the Capricorns i know a tremendous ability in Math and Music again that pairing of practical / magical. Same source.

Yes. This happens often.

13/1/07 10:10 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Well, some people seem to have exuberant confidence about anything.

For me, I am most confident about things I know, and from knowing the scope of my abilities

Perfect description of Sag to Cap.

The Jupiterian confidence is necessary to take chances, to leap chasms. Then the saturnian confidence takes charge, halts the runaway train, and harnesses the force.

In the end of the Pluto transit, people should be able to see how events propelled the collective to necessary places, and just in time, the brakeman will arrive. The game now is the end of this type of confidence that will no longer be needed.

13/1/07 10:16 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I think part of the Saturnian nature is not to make a big display of the magical power, unless required."

I'm no occultist but well, what would be the point, LOL! Maybe it just comes to everyone in some way, wherever they have a special talent of their own. I've heard before, "You can be psychic (at certain levels) without growing spiritually, but you can't grow spiritually without developing psychic sensitivity."

13/1/07 10:16 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I think that statement is correct.

13/1/07 10:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There is a chance that the father's 29 Cap retro prevented him from a complete trip into the collective which you arrived to complete. In terms of surpassing the father, this is a good manifestation of the myth.

13/1/07 10:22 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Speaking of "time travel", time for a cartoon break from normal reality. :-)

13/1/07 10:56 PM  
Blogger jm said...

LOL!! Like a commercial break in the old TV days.

Ah yes. Normal reality.

13/1/07 11:09 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"...this is a good manifestation of the myth."

And I think he has a natal Venus/Mars conjunction in Cancer-- whatever that might mean!

15/1/07 5:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

That's interesting. It further holds him back from full engagement in society and adds to your taking of the baton.
That conjunction is intimacy and personal concerns, the exact opposite of yours. Not that people without placements like this don't have intimacy. Just not a focus.

the Leo connection is part of the bone in this. Leos want to be magnificent and be revered. It's interesting, the mixture of personal attention mixed with group progress. I sense that he has high expectations and standards, maybe too much personal angst, unrealized goals. I've never known a Mars in Cancer who wasn't emotionally distraught quite often. Tension in the family, often demanding, troublesome.

17/1/07 5:24 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Well, he's always been a hard-working, reticent man, so it's been difficult to know what goes on in his head.

He is cheerful and sociable when physically active. He studied external martial arts and lifted weights when he was young. He was taller than his peers, his dark hair wavy, his brow noble, nose straight and his bones strong. Our mother remembers asking her roommate, "Which man is better?" Rich man, poor man? That was when her roommate said the fateful words: "Oh, but that one is handsome!"

My brother says that our father is like the "salt of the earth." He grew up riding oxen and incubating duck eggs with the warmth of his body. The ducklings were most obedient to his directives, our father recalled. He said that they followed him to swim in the river every day, and that when he told them it was time to go, they were always quick to follow him home.

He says things like, "Tomorrow is another day. Manana is manana." I don't know where he learned Spanish words, as he doesn't speak the language and never finished school.

17/1/07 8:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The school part is very typical of the Capricorn rise in life and this says so much. Why you were meant to carry on from the humble beginnings.

The interesting part is your SN in Aquarius with the other planets that keeps you involved with things you really don't want to be. Some obligation factor. There is business to be taken care of before you can do what you really want to do with the Pisces and the Leo...just live for yourself and be an artist. There is a magic blend, of course, but the family desire to rise and achieve is strong. Seems like your sister was really pegged for this though.

In ways, he was compelled to push ahead, pushing his children to do that too, but at the end of it, I think there is yet another alternative.

It's hard for us to imagine these living circumstances and the inability to get an education which was common not that long ago. Still is in places. Very painful for these people.

Manana is like Esperanto...remember that universal language?

17/1/07 9:52 PM  
Blogger jm said...

One thing I'm curious about. What does your father think of your art?

17/1/07 10:18 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Fine art? I've never personally heard him express a strong opinion about fine art. I have heard him say that I have the best craftsmanship in the family. My general feeling is that there is some inarticulate pride on his part in my professional work, which happens to blend the aesthetic and functional.

I feel there could be something else that will happen, to which everything else may be building. Accepting challenging opportunities along the way is like training that develops internal power, even though some of it may appear unappealing on the surface to the pure Piscean type.

18/1/07 12:09 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Just getting his opinion on where to go out for dinner can be like pulling teeth.

Our father has stories that can only be pried out of him. When he was in the hospital, we brought toys and games to entertain him. While playing cards, our father told us that his grandfather took him along to gambling halls when he was a little boy. Then he confessed that he hadn't wanted to teach us card games because he feared we would gamble! That was not at all any of our temperaments. We were more complicated than that. :-)

18/1/07 12:37 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I tend to see it this way too. As a building to something specific. But then sometimes I wonder if this isn't artificailly imposed to give meaning to our existences. Sometimes I lean toward existentialism, although I've always had a goal. Whether I reach it or not doesn't seem to be important.

Interesting about Pisces. I'm ruled by Neptune myself, conjunct my ruling Mars. In reality, to Pisces none of it matters. The true type can do or not do. There is a certain futility to actions but in that realization comes true meaning. The unimportance of it all. Or maybe the importance of everything equally.

I do think the greatest liberation is to be detached from outcomes. It's very hard for me to see much of a difference in any of my choices. I'm the same no matter what I do. Or don't do.

18/1/07 12:43 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Just getting his opinion on where to go out for dinner can be like pulling teeth.

Heheh.

He takes on more an more character as you describe him. And you do this well. You have a good eye for odd details.

Did you say you had the birth day?

The 29 degree is heavy. Capricorn is held-in so this could be an extreme case of it. Very very hard with expressive Leo. I'm wondering how this self got out. Or didn't causing the heart back-up. Still, he must express his love in some way. You seem to have received it.

The excessive caution is Capricorn, again this late degree taking it to the maximum.

So it all comes around to your North Node as you travel through the Capricorn/Aquarius reserve and finally reach self expression with the weight of this experience and inheritance.

In you, I see the strict foot before foot path, but then when you break out in humor and absurdity it's complete and hilarious. One stimulating the other.

Does your father laugh?

18/1/07 12:51 AM  
Blogger jm said...

It also brings to mind my Pisces/Aquarius father with Saturn/Neptune in Leo. He was a comedian and a nonachiever. I loved his humor but never got instruction in how to climb in the world. I thought I was inhibited by this, but maybe in the long run as I try to pick my way in the dark, I'll feel an even greater achievement having gone against the odds and learned on my own.

Before he died he asked me why I wasn't successful with my talent. Big question. I think I said something about not wanting to be yet, timing or something. Then we had an experience where I showed him the extent of my will when I applied it. Both of us were flabbergasted. I think this was probably one of the most important moments of my life. When I realized I could achieve exactly what I wanted to.

So in the end he did show me the path to achievement in his convoluted Piscean way. He showed me myself

18/1/07 1:03 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Does your father laugh?"

Yes, he has a sense of humor and can tease, but he does not get silly.

I am intrinsically more focused and therefore potentially more intense (whether in seriousness or in humor), whereas he tends to be laissez-faire. I don't think my intensity has anything to do with his personality. I probably arrived that way.

19/1/07 9:45 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I don't think my intensity has anything to do with his personality. I probably arrived that way.

Packaged, sealed, and delivered. First class. Fragile?

Glad he laughs.

20/1/07 1:08 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Well, I arrived in one piece, so maybe not too fragile to get here after all! But eventually we all go kaput. :-)

Which brings to mind how it is that, after arrival, people have different stress-out thresholds though their circumstances may not be all that different on the surface. Interesting.

20/1/07 9:45 AM  
Blogger jm said...

One thing to keep in mind is the iceberg factor, and some might be concealing their stress. But, of course, some have blue eyes, some hazel.

And this brings to mind my question. How can we adjust our own stress factors? habitual reponse is strong, and there for reasons.

20/1/07 2:32 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Well, that's kind of a general question. Sometimes the reasons for habit are no longer current, or at least have diminished.

If the cost/benefit ratio is unrewarding, perhaps the stress is exaggerated. Then, I would consider dissolving the mental patterns behind the stress reaction.

It's helpful to rehearse, but largely, we learn by doing. Specific methods vary. Some people have taken a few doses of medication to relieve traumatic memories, or to permanently unlearn fear of a specific situation. People who have trance ability can try hypnosis, auto-suggestion, and guided meditations. Other people focus on learning new brainwave patterns.

20/1/07 7:13 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It seems that there are all kinds of secondary "benefits" from stress which is why people continue to keep it going. The chemical high, which to me is low, but they crave it. You can see it in the way they look at a news item repeatedly for gratuitous pain.

I often think turning away is the best approach if the need is no longer there to experience something stressful.
It's a contract betewwn the stressor and stressee. So if one walks, the game is over.

Fear is an extremely potent emotion and is supposed to be used sparingly, I thought. I'm puzzled by this evolutionary development. Takes me back to the view that it provides sensation that is desired.

20/1/07 7:31 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Sometimes it's a bit tricky for people to realize what they're doing, and that there are other possibilities of experience.

The "negative" may be linked to something else to which one clings, possibly unnecessarily. The value of negative experience is in learning the lesson that releases it and frees one's energy.

Evolution is a creative, messy process, and takes quite a while to weed things out! Maybe nothing really dictates how quickly it goes for any individual.

People who have unrealistic fears have ungrounded energy. This takes them away from awareness of present reality. Fear is closely linked to physical survival, so it feels compelling. Without the ability to perceive reality clearly, wholly, the universe can seem more threatening and ominous than it is.

I remember reading about how some people who grow hard of hearing also grow more paranoid. I may walk through the market hearing ordinary chatter around me, but some people with poor hearing start to imagine that other people are muttering negatively about them. Without insight, it's very easy to create self-fulfilling prophecies. "And then I began to feel that other people were always watching me. I told myself, as I often did in those early days, that it was absurd. But then when I looked, people really were looking back at me!" And then the fears seem justified, reinforced constantly. I knew a few people like that, taking things personally that had nothing to do with them.

Whatever we believe can become crystallized until it is solid to us, wired into our brains, bodies, and daily experience, even when it is real to no one else.

Sometimes it seems to be a karmic lesson, as in degenerative neural conditions leading to full blown paranoia, thinking for example that every time a light bulb burns out that it is a sign of a psychic attack, or that a crack in the bathroom wall is the hiding place of a CIA camera. The paranoid individual struggles to make sense of the world but it appears fragmented and disjointed. He may truly be trying, but still fail to integrate perceptions into anything close to a whole picture. For a well-balanced person, a simple glance suffices to grasp his overall circumstances.

20/1/07 10:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

People who have unrealistic fears have ungrounded energy.

I think it could be this simple. And I agree that we can't ascertain their evolutionary point, and how much of a repeated experience they need.

Sometimes it seems to be a karmic lesson, as in degenerative neural conditions

It could be a step forward in neural development that is needed. I've stayed away from the crowd perceiving an overall neural retardation, but it could be just a matter of time.

It's not the extreme paranoia that concerns me. It's the low-level popular sharing of this experience that seeks validation. A certain amount is normal.

There seems to be an extra heavy dose amongst astrologers. The first ones I encountered were not like this, but when I broadened my scope recently, I was disappointed to find too much hocus pocus, and serious paranoia. But then probably the more sensible, healthy grounded ones are occupied elsewhere.

20/1/07 11:27 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

I think the entry requirements have gotten looser over the years. How many people today dabbling in astrology could cast a chart with pencil and paper if their computer broke down?

Like the Internet. I was impressed with the intelligent messages that I first encountered, then watched it change as more people found their way onto the Internet.

Also, I'm curious that there seems to be little use of the intuitive faculties. I have known psychic people who can sense astrological patterns without recourse to ephemerides and computers, but maybe that is unusual. I feel that higher intuition and insight would help move astrology away from the semblance of wild guessing. Not everyone can be a good psychic, but the study of dreams is open to most people.

21/1/07 12:04 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"A certain amount is normal."

Normal as in not uncommon, maybe. To me, groundless fears are much the same, though differing in degree and details. Maybe the Internet just makes it easier for people of similar mental cast to communicate with each other, and reinforce each other. It seems natural, then, that the negative will amplify until it burns itself out, as it is wont to do.

21/1/07 12:21 AM  
Blogger jm said...

It's an ancient custom. To band together and fear the gods. The government in this case. It's ludicrous. The thing doesn't exist, but somehow the majority is still wired to personify the infinite and fear it. I'm counting on science and metaphysics to unite in the coming years to dispel some of this.

I feel that higher intuition and insight would help move astrology away from the semblance of wild guessing.

Either way would work. Read or sense it, but I agree. The wild guessing is useless.

Maybe I'll be disappointed if I expect more from these forums, but I'M here. So there must be others. I've known very good astrologers in my time, and I hope they contribute as we progress.

21/1/07 2:51 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

I'm sure they're out there. I think that some intuitive awareness operates in every field to bring in fresh information and insight. I would think that astrology's roots are nonlinear, and that bringing more modes of cognition into play would expand the field's knowledge base. Maybe that is a little radical for the present for a number of reasons.

22/1/07 11:42 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I think I figured it out. The astro political sites are the culprits, but I've noticed that they have very little astrology and mostly political gossip. This leads me to believe that they aren't good astrologers with a genuine love for the subject to begin with. For a person to choose these low level people as a focus rather than the universe and its cosmic wonders tells the story.

I have run across some good work on other sites. But you are right. At present, they aren't ready as a whole.

People continue to cling to false images. They can't even get Bush right after staring at him nonstop for years and years. Astrologers can get it immediately, if they know the science, so I have to be patient with the mass consciousness. Forget it, probably, and go on my merry way.

22/1/07 3:54 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This leads me to believe that they aren't good astrologers with a genuine love for the subject to begin with."

And some come to astrology without a good foundation in much else.

"Forget it, probably, and go on my merry way."

"When the student is ready...." :-)

22/1/07 4:08 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Aahhh, yes....the ever wondering/wandering student.

You are absolutely right again. The foundation is probably in the egg.
The extra sense factor is innate, as you said earlier, and is required.

This student should use her extra good sense.

22/1/07 4:30 PM  

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