Sunday, April 08, 2007

Of Bird and Tree


An English dovecote, circa 1800. Unpainted, unvarnished, unoiled elm.

Folk Art. Robert Young.

74 Comments:

Anonymous Joe said...

Maybe it's because of the Easter season, but every 2 or 3 blogs and the Sunday morning TV programs are talking about religion as problem, as a catalyst for war and hatred, as a form of mental slavery, as a delusion, etc.

Or maybe it's Pluto in Cap?

8/4/07 9:19 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Pluto finishing in Sagittarius. A little bit of truth. It couldn't be any more obvious. Hello out there?

Sagittarius is organized religion.
Good information joe. Interesting that they are discussing these things rather than the greatness of Jesus.

And the Moon was in Sagittarius today.

8/4/07 7:00 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Ja, Pluto finishing in Sagittarius, perhaps with a bit of help from the sextile to Neptune in Aquarius and the trine to Saturn in Leo. Just transforming the dreams of freemen as opposed to the royals. Perhaps?

I made cookies, now that i found that i can freeze log-rolls and cut off a couple at a time i'm enjoying cookies again. i only ever liked them soft and warm.

Teapot is ready for Juno's herb blend. I'm having ginger- lemon. What is your preference JM? Anyone?

8/4/07 7:07 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Today is "bonne idée" at our house. When my son was small and learning french i pointed out the pun - bonne idée which sounds like bunny day is French for good idea We like the Hare of eostre / eos who brings gifts and spring.

So, wishing you all une bonne idée!

8/4/07 7:14 PM  
Blogger jm said...

COOKIES!!!!!!

I love cookies. One of my weaknesses. Soft and warm is good. I also like soft. Not really a gingersnap fan.
But ginger tea is my preference. With honey.
Thank you ever so much, tseka.

8/4/07 7:15 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Good idea!!!..:)

Happy bonne idee to you too. I'm impressed with your thingy on top of the "e". You told me once how to get those, but I didn't do it.

What a juxtaposition. Bleeding on the cross and eggs and bunnies.

In this case, I prefer Passover.

8/4/07 7:18 PM  
Blogger jm said...

TV programs are talking about religion as problem, as a catalyst for war and hatred, as a form of mental slavery

All well and good, but what they fail to say is that TV is one of the worst forms of mental slavery. Call a spade a spade.

8/4/07 7:25 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Lack of religion in my family, i always felt was a blessing. Though it did create some interesting moments. I remember once reading a story to my son and one of the neighbor's children, both pre-schoolers at the time. She pushed the book down and leaned across me to look my son in the eyes..."do you love Jesus" the good catholic daughter asked. My son looked mystified. "i don't know, i've never met him"

Shortly after play-day at the neighbors, he came storming home, "do you know who Jesus is? A picture! This is all about a picture."

We both now enjoy long conversations as we read widely into beliefs of others with interest and respect.

8/4/07 7:33 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Ja, i often wonder what would happen if some "ray" bleeped out all TV transmissions for a month. I envision a world in trauma which slowly gets a grip on reality and lets go of the dependency. Do you think it would take more than a month?

8/4/07 7:36 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Exactly, exactly, the juxtaposition. Lynn's Astrowisdom had a link to a great Gnostic blog that I followed, and it contained a passage from a lecture given in 1931, called "The Esoteric Easter." This was exactly what I was ready for, and on such an apropos time in astro terms!

8/4/07 7:39 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

I think you'd need to include pagers, cell phones, etc. People would just switch their dependency to those, all the more so. Granted, the influence is less for communication devices, but people use them to blather and distract themselves from spiritual and mental development.

8/4/07 7:42 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Lack of religion in my family, i always felt was a blessing

Moi aussi.

i often wonder what would happen if some "ray" bleeped out all TV transmissions for a month. I envision a world in trauma

Frightening to think of this massive dependency. But you know? Humans are so adaptable, I'd bet a month might almost be enough. At least to get over the initial surgical shock. As far as real recovery, probably never. It has to do with what created this dependence in the first place.

It's very scary. More scary to me than religions, although part of the same thing. Looking for guidance.

8/4/07 7:42 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Gack! Astrodynamics, I meant, not Astrowisdom.

8/4/07 7:43 PM  
Blogger jm said...

but people use them to blather and distract themselves from spiritual and mental development.

Yes they do.

Joe, the Easter thing has always been morbid to me with that juxtaposition. The innocence of the bunny. Easter says it to me. Children are dragged into the whole thing and lured with these enticements. Candy, little one?

8/4/07 7:47 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

I used to HATE Easter. I was raised Catholic, as you may recall. We had Lent, Ash Wednesday, Good Friday and so on, leading up to Easter Sunday. Endless services, kneeling and prostrating, doleful songs, etc.

As a writer I'm fond of commented, upon viewing a crucified Christ appearing particularly pained:
"Bloody savage religion!"

It was the eggs that turned it around for me, that and realizing the greater, deeper mythos of the Sacrificed God behind it all. It allowed me to let go of the doleful stuff, although things like Gibson's bloody crucifixion movie (which I never saw) tend to bring flashbacks.

8/4/07 7:52 PM  
Blogger jm said...

But this is where the real hypocrisy disturbs me continually, and I struggle to come to terms with this world I live in.

These TV personalities sit there high and mighty, well fed, perfectly coiffed and pancaked, living in mansions, and talking about religions causing war with all their smugness.
Yet weren't they the ones who sold Operation Iraqi Freedom like a grade B hollywood movie to the public resulting in all the murder and destruction? Are they not complicit? Aren't we all?

"Who's fooling who?" I always ask.

8/4/07 7:53 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Endless services, kneeling and prostrating, doleful songs, etc.

Well said.

The whole image of crucifixion has always been awful to me. The way it's glorified is sick. If we are supposed to aspire to be like these icons, then we are in fact being directed to prepare ourselves for this fate, if need be.

Anyway, blood sacrifice is so universal and I have been studying it. It goes deeper than the religions. The religions are the symptom.

8/4/07 7:57 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

If we are supposed to aspire to be like these icons, then we are in fact being directed to prepare ourselves for this fate, if need be.

Never thought of it that way, but what amazes me is how these ideas get started, and promulgated by those with an interest in controlling the masses. As that esoteric essay states, it's likely the whole Christ story derives from the exhortation to develop our spirituality. Then it got mixed up with the Sacrificed God who is either murdered to save his people, or is nailed to a tree, or hangs himself on the World Tree (think Odin).

The problem is, people take this stuff literally and start believing it happened this way or that.

8/4/07 8:02 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Unfortunately I am dead tired and must hit the sack. I'll be interested to see what people talk about while I'm in dreamland! Good night all. :o)

8/4/07 8:11 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

Hi guys! Green tea for me tonight! I was very domestic today...I started pre-planting the garden seeds. Then I made bread. Now I'm recovering from a nice ham and cabbage dinner. I feel very accomplished tonite...

Yeah, tv. I don't really watch it much, the crab tends to watch the 'CSI' shows a lot, although in the last month or so, he's gotten hooked on the history channel which is at least nominally better for him (and me living with him...).I think he gets it from his mom, she is one of those people who has a tv going in every room-usually all tuned to different channels..it drives me mad personally. I see some real awful shows advertised tho and I can't stand getting trapped somewhere like a bank queue and be forced to watch CNN or some other 24/7 news. I could do without TV for the most part(she says grasping her entire Mystery Science Theater collection and the box set of 'I claudius' to her chest screaming, "No, no, take everything but that, I was only spouting hyperbole! really!")..

8/4/07 8:12 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Interesting about sacrifice on the tree. That has a lot of significance.

what amazes me is how these ideas get started, and promulgated by those with an interest in controlling the masses.

I think the masses are just as complicit as the elite. Their superstitions and rituals would be there anyway, and what they do to one another is just as bad. Like the native Americans, if the truth really wanted to be known. Mixed with their spirituality was a baseness and intertibal brutality that all peoples have. Universal.

I am entirely against the perpetuation of this belief that the masses are somehow innocent victims. They are just as bad as the rulers. They do to one another what the rulers do to the commoners. They establish the same hierarchies. Same blood lust. Same greed. Same aspirations to power.

I don't think we can really progress until this fallacy is understood.

8/4/07 8:12 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

G'night Joe! Sorry I missed you! Happy Eostre (sp?) and sweet dreams...

8/4/07 8:14 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Juno!! Get your tea. I've got some interesting news for you. I will grab today's paper.

8/4/07 8:14 PM  
Blogger jm said...

"nite joe! Thanks for the pertinent info.

8/4/07 8:15 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

..."The whole image of crucifixion has always been awful to me. The way it's glorified is sick."...

I agree. Especially since the point of the whole exercise is not supposed to be his method of death, but the resurrection after. One would think that a reborn Jesus emerging from the opened tomb would be a far more suitable icon. I've always thought (in my pagan witchy way) that the world will never be right until people relaize that by glorifying the crucifxion they keep jesus on the cross eternally, ultimately focusing on the wrong side of the equation...what is that line about "what you do to the least of these you do to me as well"...? If you torture Jesus, well it's just a hop skip and jump to torturing others because they are 'less' than Jesus...

8/4/07 8:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The world always needs something to do, and it looks like this environmental thing might be it. Since warfare is declining, it makes sense.

Today my paper announced that the newest cash crop is corn for ethanol. Production in Colorado is going up 25% to 1.25 million acres, second highest total since the 1930's. That is a LEAP!!!
Nationally the rise is expected to be 15%. So this is where the money's going.

8/4/07 8:26 PM  
Blogger jm said...

One would think that a reborn Jesus emerging from the opened tomb would be a far more suitable icon.

Very very very very good point juno.

8/4/07 8:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

by glorifying the crucifxion they keep jesus on the cross eternally, ultimately focusing on the wrong side of the equation...what is that line about "what you do to the least of these you do to me as well"...? If you torture Jesus, well it's just a hop skip and jump to torturing others because they are 'less' than Jesus...

Herein lies a lot of the truth. But we have to find the source of the elevation of suffering.

8/4/07 8:29 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

I think this image is very old. Odin Hanging upside down from the Jotun Ash (the very kind that survived the lightning bolt in your Post JM. Yggdrasil the world tree which bridges all the worlds above and below. Hanging upside down to receive esoteric wisdom. Then of course the hangman of the tarot, which may have come from the story of Odin.

8/4/07 8:29 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

I'm curious Tseka...did the Odin legend correlate with any particular time of year?

8/4/07 8:33 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And here we have the choice in simplistic terms. Extract the bloody oil with gargantuan machines through foreign criminal brokers, causing suffering ad infinitim, or plant the seeds in our own soil, process the damn vegetables, and clip along the highways in our corn-fed cars, simplifying the blood sacrifice to car wrecks.

8/4/07 8:36 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I think this image is very old. Odin Hanging upside down from the Jotun Ash (the very kind that survived the lightning bolt in your Post JM.

Really?

I think you're right about the Hanged Man.

Then there is the Tree of Life.

Then there would be some sense in Jesusu hanging on the cross. But why the pain and blood? Death? Associated with wisdom.

8/4/07 8:40 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Good question.
I will have to research that...
He was a trickster who actually stole the runes and wisdom and carried them off - down the steppes of eruope to the middle east.

The "laws" forbade men from using Runes only women could. Men getting them it was prophecied would carry us into thousands of years of ruin. When Odin left he carried fulfars- holograms of the sacred not the real thing. The shadows.

8/4/07 8:40 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

I'm not sure we really know what happened so much about Jesus and Crist was determined by the council of Nicea in 3rd century. Many things had to be adjusted to fit prophecies and encourage inclusion of the "new sect"

8/4/07 8:44 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

There are better energy crops than corn tho. They'd better get around to legalizing the best one soon. Hemp will grow in more marginal land than corn, with less labor. Actually methanol is a step in the right direction, but will never be the whole solution. I researched this topic years ago for a high scholl debate team I was on. One of the best alternitives is 'biomass' and 'biomethane'. Remeber the propane car adaptations in the 70's? Biomethane is pretty similar to propane and natural gas and burns fairly clean as well reducing carbon output. Biomethane can be got from animal waste, compost-style garbage, and plants. I've also been keeping an eye out on the weird 'free' energy stuff like the 'joe cell'. Ethanol is good, but we can't rest on our laurels since monsanto and adm run most of our corn in this country. We don't need another Exxon. I read an article about Willie Nelson and his wife touring and promoting small local energy cooperatives, to get farmers growing the stuff needed for ethanol and biodiesel for each other, cutting out the corporate middleman.

8/4/07 8:46 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Is wisdom being associated with pain and torture a justification of these things? Cannot wisdom be acquired in other ways?
I always though that the Buddha received enlightenment after suffering but I'm not sure about the blood.

I know Judaism, Christianity, and Mohammedism are obsessed with it, as well as many tribal religions.

8/4/07 8:49 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

..."The "laws" forbade men from using Runes only women could. Men getting them it was prophecied would carry us into thousands of years of ruin. ."...

Ahrgh, NOW I'm finding this out!?! :)

8/4/07 8:50 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Many things had to be adjusted to fit prophecies and encourage inclusion of the "new sect"

Aha!

History is mostly fiction. But still, the essence comes through.

8/4/07 8:50 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The "laws" forbade men from using Runes only women could.

That's trouble right there. Speaks of female abuse of power.

8/4/07 8:51 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The "laws" forbade men from using Runes only women could. Men getting them it was prophecied would carry us into thousands of years of ruin.

This verifies my theories. This is not good belief.

8/4/07 8:53 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

And we are going to discover that public transit is a REALLY good idea...

8/4/07 8:54 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Any blame at all directed to any group at all, or even individuals, for the suffering of mankind will thwart our progress. Can't we get over this? When will we start to look in the right places for the reasons?

8/4/07 8:56 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Public transit.

France just started a public bicycle program. remember thr Provos in Amsterdam and their white free bikes? They were ahead of the game.

8/4/07 8:57 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Hemp is really a key. I believe Europe has the industry off to a good start.

It appears to me that this is coming in big time. It's exciting, futuristic, and PROFITABLE. I expect a lot to happen with Uranus in Aries which is very close. We're getting ready.

8/4/07 9:00 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

..."The "laws" forbade men from using Runes only women could. Men getting them it was prophecied would carry us into thousands of years of ruin."... Have you ever read Alphabet and the Goddess? It's really good. The main premise is that the rise of the male 'hairy thunderer' type god came at the same time as the establishment of abstract alphabets, reinforcing the left-brain logic side of the brain, and denigrating the right-side activities such as pictoral symbolic usage-thus the most patriarchal cultures allow no iconography of their deity. This change also demoted the goddess, femininity and intution as illogical, and even heretical. I can't do the book justice, but it;s well worth reading.

8/4/07 9:01 PM  
Blogger jm said...

One of the main things just around the corner is the Uranus square to Pluto in Capricorn which will challenge the established ways. The end result is supposed to be a combo of the old gradually fading, and the new innovations getting started.

I don't see any dramatic upheavel, especially since Uranus will go on to Taurus and trine the old Capricorn.

There has to be a gradual shift so the infrastructure holds while the new is being built. One thing that's happening now, though, is a natural crumbling of a lot of our infrastructure. This can be replaced with the new as we go.

8/4/07 9:04 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

Yeah, I'm so looking forward to the Uranus/pluto sqare especially. I think the promise of the 60's will come to pass in that time. There are going to be real and fundamental changes relatively soon, despite how monolithic the edifice seems. In the reading I've done on the Velvet Revolution in East Europe, most people didn't really realize they were 'free' until some time after the fact...they thought that the system would be there forever and almost couldn't comprehend it's passing.

8/4/07 9:07 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I read part of the Alphabet, and found it fascinating. I didn't get though, any explanation for the purpose of this alphabet left brain development. It has to be a "logical" part of our evolution.

The idea about a return to the "goddess" is false, I believe. The goddesses are equal to the gods. They had their turns and did badly too. Hopefully a synthesis will eventually occur, but pitting one against the other will continue our problems.

8/4/07 9:09 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

IMO, The main goal right now is to get the underlying connections made and functioning so that there is structure in place when it starts to crumble at the top. The Nep/sat and uranus/sat are going to being both solidifying the new structure and showing the weaknesses of the old. Moving into that pluto/uranus, the energy will certinly be right for change and the establishment of a new foundation for us as a species. I also think we tend to overlook the fact that we have a lot of college-trained people out of work right now. Build a system...they will come...

8/4/07 9:13 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Power over others is the problem. The goddesses look good know because of a romanticizing.

In the reading I've done on the Velvet Revolution in East Europe, most people didn't really realize they were 'free' until some time after the fact...they thought that the system would be there forever and almost couldn't comprehend it's passing.

This is interesting juno. I think all understanding is after the fact. The passing of a system is actually happening as soon as it is born. All things die. Bush is as good as gone, along with the years of their power, and now it seems like more of the same, but it probably won't be. Not good, but different.

8/4/07 9:13 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

I don't have TOO many illusions about the goddess :)..you are right tho, imbalance is not good. A wise old druid friend explained it to be years ago, about how the pendulum was swinging back and the trick would be to find the center and balance it before momentum carried it off to fuel more action and reaction...

8/4/07 9:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Moving into that pluto/uranus, the energy will certinly be right for change and the establishment of a new foundation for us as a species.

It's evolution and revolution together, which is ultimately good. We'll be able to see some change maybe. I know there is going to be a lot of that with energy use. No doubt.

Another possibility is this global concern now that's "heating" up. It's a uniting force worldwide. It could work to our benefit as a species as we start to think about preservation rather than destruction. I get the destructive part from Sagittarius, and preservation from Capricorn, especially with Uranus in Taurus. There is a huge conjunction of planets coming up in Capricorn in the coming years. Very unusual.

The threat is real and people will respond accordingly. Survival dictates.

8/4/07 9:19 PM  
Blogger jm said...

the pendulum was swinging back and the trick would be to find the center and balance it before momentum carried it off to fuel more action and reaction...

Wouldn't that be great? Have we progressed just a little so some of this could come down?

I feel equal toward male and female, a thing I attribute to my Venus-Uranus conjunction. I really don't differentiate gender wise. I never ever could identitfy with the battle of the sexes. Aries rising also contributes. Maybe Uranus in Aries and the upcoming other transits with Uranus will help propel this balance.

8/4/07 9:23 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

'There is a huge conjunction of planets coming up in Capricorn in the coming years. Very unusual.'....

Interesting, when and which ones?

8/4/07 9:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is really something.

2020. Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Pluto.
February.

8/4/07 9:46 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The Jupiter-Saturn-Pluto will be for awhile, and it's powerful.

I forgot!!! Trine Uranus in Taurus.

I got bumped offline, so if it takes me a minute, it's them! Or it!

This looks mighty auspicious juno.

8/4/07 9:49 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

Wow, you're right. That looks like a doozy. Right after the sat/jup conjuction too. So much capricorn going on. I actually think pluto is going to be even more interesting for me as it passes over my planets in cap. You mentioned pluto hitting your south node and possibly bringing some real change...I feel that now my essential personality has been 'tweaked', the pluto over my node and inner planets might bring real changes to my life and behaviors

8/4/07 10:00 PM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

Well, I'm starting to fade here. I'm obviously getting used to my new hours...I've woken up before the alarm clock the last couple of days... but it plays hob with my late-night stamina.

...Drain the last cuppa tea...hmmm, I will sleep well tonite. Thank you for the chat, jm and Tseka. I always feel better after coming over to talk to you guys. You are so real and vibrant. And you have such knowledge...:). As always, take care, Juno

8/4/07 10:13 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is a perfect time to use astrology at its best. The passage of Pluto over these planets will be life altering, and you can prepare now. I sense change in you already. maybe a bit calmer, serious, maybe getting ready to focus on your collective destiny. A fantastic opportunity, this Plutonian sweep with the SN.

When Pluto crossed my SN in the 7th, I started my real independent life. although it took years to manifest fully. I had a major confrontation with the spook factor (Scorpio) and others, and realized I should walk away from a lot of it. I still struggle with staying away from trouble and people every day, but since the transit, I'm doing better. The thing I still have to master is staying out of it from the beginning.

The whole thing in your chart is releasing you from personal excess, so you can get to that beautiful Cancer North in the 11th...nurturing the group, which you already do so well. More to come.
It's destined to prepare you for the transit to Saturn in Aquarius which will further cement the humanistic self in your daily life. Maybe your work will change somewhat to include some things like this. I think you will get more and more dedicated to helping out in a big way.

The first is Mars, and that can be tough. I have Mars at 0 Libra, and I am clenching already to deal with the energy and tension. I had Pluto conjunct my Mars years ago and it was one of the most life altering. Everyone is different, but the use of our vital life force through Mars is important. So that's the kick-off.

8/4/07 10:16 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Love you, juno! Thanks for the talk. You're in the know too. Sleep well, don't worry too much, and come back soon.

8/4/07 10:17 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This verifies my theories. This is not good belief."

I once read about a psychic healer who held workshops on healing the feminine. In the workshops, she regressed people to recall their past lives.

Some women now fighting patriarchy recalled abusing power during a particular era of matriarchy. The story emerged that, after the destruction of Atlantis, power-hungry Atlantean souls reincarnated in the surrounding matriarchal cultures.

In that version of prehistory, the matriarchal cultures became corrupted as a result. Supposedly, some forms of patriarchy have had a heightened reactiveness to that. But, of course, in periods of patriarchy, power-hungry souls can be reborn as males. In earlier eras, there was not the rift between the sexes as came later.

Perhaps what the truth of the past may be does not matter anymore. The cause of an effect may be the effect of an earlier cause, and so on. It is just that the karmic buck has got to stop in the present era, with the people alive today. We can dream a new dream, and make it real.

8/4/07 10:18 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I never ever could identitfy with the battle of the sexes."

I didn't get it, either.... :-)

8/4/07 10:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

OMG kad. This is exactly what I thought.

Some women now fighting patriarchy recalled abusing power during a particular era of matriarchy.

Probably all. That kind of fear and hatred has a basis.

In that version of prehistory, the matriarchal cultures became corrupted as a result. Supposedly, some forms of patriarchy have had a heightened reactiveness to that.

This is so obvious, I don't see how it can be missed. Selective perception. Of course it's reaction as all things are. Action and reaction, all things being intrinsically good and bad, as we learn to make choices.

It is just that the karmic buck has got to stop in the present era, with the people alive today. We can dream a new dream, and make it real.

This is what I work toward every day. The only reason maybe, to remember the karma is to stop laying blame altogether. We're all responsible for where we are now, and also for where we go next.

8/4/07 10:28 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"...the trick would be to find the center and balance it before momentum carried it off to fuel more action and reaction..."

That makes really good sense to me. And I think that the reason why some of us are here on the planet in the present era, creating and holding the balance.

8/4/07 10:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm telling you. I didn't relate from the getgo. All that hormonal theater in school left me on the sidelines. Men were always friends to me. And I've never felt thwarted by any so-called patriarchy. men are easy to deal with.

8/4/07 10:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

the reason why some of us are here on the planet in the present era, creating and holding the balance.

What a wonderful thought. I do love the gender equality ones by nature for this job. I've always attracted these types.

8/4/07 10:34 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"OMG kad. This is exactly what I thought."

The general principle does seem to make sense of the puzzle pieces. A culture or civilization could have truly had its "Golden Age", and in a later time meet its downfall, unable to adapt to a challenge it did not understand. So the past has a mixed reputation.

Some of these cultures lasted a very long time, so they do offer something of value. I believe we can receive their gifts of wisdom, brush aside their imperfections, and carry on.

"This is what I work toward every day. The only reason maybe, to remember the karma is to stop laying blame altogether. We're all responsible for where we are now, and also for where we go next."

And we know it's happening, just because we can talk about it. We're definitely in the process. We have become aware of the game.

8/4/07 10:41 PM  
Blogger jm said...

A culture or civilization could have truly had its "Golden Age", and in a later time meet its downfall, unable to adapt to a challenge it did not understand. So the past has a mixed reputation.

I think this the usual course.

Some of these cultures lasted a very long time, so they do offer something of value. I believe we can receive their gifts of wisdom, brush aside their imperfections, and carry on.

Definitely. Gleaning these things is the trick. One man's wisdom is another fool's mumbo jumbo.

And we know it's happening, just because we can talk about it.

Good thought.

8/4/07 10:54 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I do love the gender equality ones by nature for this job."

I've always been amazed that some people don't naturally see it the same way. I like to think of people as unique individuals first.

It might be an evolutionary thing. Some genes proliferated more because they fit the prevailing paradigm for "success", but the paradigm has been shifting in a new direction, irrevocably.

I read an article today about the psychology of the workplace, and how people in general are very confused about the hallmarks for success, and therefore, leadership.

Put a group of people together, give them something to do, ask them to pick a leader after the task is accomplished, and the group will clearly give someone the nod.

What people tend to miss is that the character of the emergent leader is far from the effective leader. The emergent leader is often the ambitious, narcissistic, self-absorbed type. He or she knows how to simulate the appearance of success and leadership. He or she may have charisma, may project a strong personality, even warmth and apparent concern for values held by others, while the underlying reality is far different. He knows how to rise quickly up the ladder, but lacks effective management skills. His motivation is not to fulfill the management role, but to use it in haste as a stepping stone to another place, the quicker the better.

The emergent leader's opposite is the truly effective leader, who will by any real measure be found to have the most satisfied, committed, productive and high performing teams.

The qualities of the emergent leader and the effective leader overlap only about 10%, according to psychologists who study the dynamics of the business world and the work environment.

To put it succinctly, there are many who have learned how to rule but failed to learn how to govern. So they leave ruin and trouble in their wake.

This is not to say we can't have people with ambition, but we must inquire into its true direction, and whether it is in constructive balance with other needed qualities in the group.

Something to keep in mind as we observe and comment on the political process to our associates. :-)

8/4/07 11:30 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I've always been amazed that some people don't naturally see it the same way. I like to think of people as unique individuals first.

This also amazes me. I can't perceive what purpose this serves, this arbitrary delineation. Maybe lack of trust in the self. To make the right judgements so they use a preconceived formula.

What people tend to miss is that the character of the emergent leader is far from the effective leader.

Very very very interesting. this makes sense.

The emergent leader's opposite is the truly effective leader, who will by any real measure be found to have the most satisfied, committed, productive and high performing teams.

This is so interesting and explains a lot that's on my mind now, about people following the wrong people. So predictable, their choices. They consistently overlook the real leaders.

The qualities of the emergent leader and the effective leader overlap only about 10%, according to psychologists who study the dynamics of the business world and the work environment.

Again this is something.

The rule and govern distinction is it. I suppose it's possible as Pluto transits Capricorn that some of this will realign as societal need dictates. It's fluff and feathers or bone coming up..:)

9/4/07 12:10 AM  
Blogger jm said...

It's not that hard to understand. Say you have two race horses, and one is whinnying and stomping, showing off. The other is quiet and still. I would think the average person would pick the show-off as the winner, though this seems to be an unsure bet in my opinion. The horse holding energy in reserve would appeal to me.

9/4/07 12:15 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I wonder what the effective leaders' common characteristics are.

9/4/07 12:17 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The horse holding energy in reserve would appeal to me."

A dark horse! With dark energy. ;-)

"I wonder what the effective leaders' common characteristics are."

Some traits correlate, moderately. Nowadays, an effective leader has openness -- to the new, to diversity -- and is nimble and nondogmatic. The effective leader ranks low in agreeableness (not a people pleaser), and is probably a good manager.

But effective leaders have the same personality traits as other people. No one trait is nearly as strong a predictor as the combination of all traits developed and exercised proportionately to circumstances. All traits together predict effective leadership more strongly than does intelligence. So, it's the whole package.

Still, as you may expect, someone who is a poor leader in many areas may find a niche where they serve well.

The negative extreme of narcissistic power is totalitarianism, but a positive function of narcissists is that they prevent complacent homogeneity in society. Some narcissists are benign; having grandiose, beneficient visions, charisma and intelligence, they win many dedicated followers who strive to create something new.

So we can't be completely formulaic about it, after all, and narcissists have a place. Just not in the same room as me, thank you. :-)

9/4/07 8:56 AM  
Blogger jm said...

The effective leader ranks low in agreeableness (not a people pleaser)

Holy Hannah.

but a positive function of narcissists is that they prevent complacent homogeneity in society.

Another Holy Hannah. I have a lot to say on this subject. The above is a fascinating well said statement.

One of the reasons popular opinion expresses so much fear of narcissism is a fear of self reflection. But more later.

9/4/07 3:24 PM  

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