Tuesday, July 24, 2007

Bury Your Troubles

Yesterday the subject of Venus, beauty, and the earth came up as an antidote to traumatic experiences, an ongoing fact of life.
Too much Scorpio and one needs a break from the crisis and battle to again feel the beauty and depth of what we are really about on the earth - venus, taurus, cancer and the 4th house.
Don
As Mars furrows through Taurus, this seems especially appropriate, and I just came across a book about potting sheds. Pleasure goes hand in velvet glove with the concept of soil and germination ... a fertile place to put pain. Planting the seeds of sorrow and trouble into moist dirt, nurturing them and watching them grow appeal to my good sense, not to mention my north node in Taurus.
There are many solutions to these problems, and what works for one will fail completely for another. I've never been one for picking at wounds repeatedly and bringing the caskets back up for exhumation with another through psychotherapy, although sometimes this way does the job well enough. With a south node in Scorpio, the aesthetic approach is the one for me. I've noticed as I continue this pictorial journey through Raging Universe that the juxtaposition of beautiful images with the words of sometimes uncomfortable experiences is in itself a soothing balm. I wonder if this could be used in therapeutic techniques. It's amazing how much beauty there is to provide this healthy potion.
The rich cool interior of the potting shed is a perfect place to go. No revenge, no guilt, no obssession, no envy, no jealousy, no fear, no sinister shrieking monsters, and no politicians. Just a budding plant, hopefully free of grubs and other assorted worm-like pests. One can always hope.
Photo: Teri Dunn

144 Comments:

Blogger Don said...

i am down here in southwest New Mexico - Silver City - an old mining town on the border of the Gila Wilderness - and right across the road from my place there is a drainage that runs for about a mile and a half into and thru the old down town. its called the big ditch. in places a canopy of cottonwoods covers its width - green and lush - and except for a short period after the down pour of a summer monsoon - its usually dry enough to walk thru.
when heading west out of town along a certain stretch right at sunset - i have been caught by something the light does with the leaves in the trees.... I'm thinking it's somehow showing me the rotation of the earth on its axis , but don't know for sure - no matter , it is a captivating experience to be in that cool and green with the shimmering leaves and the suns last light playing thru them. i have been here close to five years and just discovered the big ditch this summer....

24/7/07 6:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I remember talk of Silver City when I live in Santa Fe. 5 years. The Mother Ditch that ran through the town was revered religiously and the love of the land was dominant. New Mexico is a unique and amazingly beautiful place. The light.
The years there were some of the most artistically productive of my life. My old upright piano faced the sunsets and many songs were inspired by the sensations.

It's wonderful, the new discovery. This makes life worth it to me. I'd bet there is information for you from the earth and her axis being revealed at just the right time. We have to be ready and in open space internally. The externals of New Mexico certainly can lead one to that space. This is a good memory. Every moment stays with us forever. We can choose.

24/7/07 9:41 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Don, this is amazing. I have a magazine right next to me and just as I finished posting my comment I turned the page. this is what appeared:

Santa Fe

Above was a photograph of the town. A sea of adobe under brilliant blue sky.

24/7/07 9:46 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

How'd you do that? :-)

24/7/07 9:53 PM  
Blogger jm said...

You did it!!!

24/7/07 9:55 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

LOL! Naw. That was all you. You got the lucky touch. That Sante Fe must be something powerful to come through like that.

24/7/07 10:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Original name of the city established in 1610:

La Villa Real de la Santa Fe de San Francisco de Asis

Spanish names are long. The husband takes the wife's family names from what I understand.

24/7/07 10:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

That Sante Fe must be something powerful to come through like that.

This is entirely weird.

24/7/07 10:06 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I got a potent sensation when I saw the words "southwest New Mexico". In an instant years of memories came flooding with a trillion sensations. Memory is powerful. Hard to say how much is the place, how much the time, how much all the other variables.

But there's no doubt that the light there is magical.

24/7/07 10:10 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

La Villa Real de la Santa Fe de San Francisco de Asis

"The Royal City of the Holy Faith of St. Francis of Assisi." Hmm, the encyclopedia article describes an intentional, planned, radiating grid of streets expanding from the central Plaza. Very interesting.

Sounds magical, yes. Something special there. That's why it's a major nexus for artists.

Definitely a must visit, someday when I get to traveling more. "Highest minimum wage in the nation"...very good. :-)

"This is entirely weird."

And natural, too. :-) It's like shamanic Nature speaking in the dreamlike language of symbols.

Weird things like that happened to me, one after the other, for days after a sweatlodge ceremony during my college days.

I believe that physical events actually begin psychologically, before unfolding in chronological time. Maybe all events have hidden connections, but usually unnoticed.

Very creative energy you're expressing there.

24/7/07 10:33 PM  
Blogger jm said...

OMG. St Francis. My guy. This is getting extremely interesting. And weirder by the second.

St. Francis was my favorite until recently when I began to think he was too weird, himself. A little excessive. I'm not sure now.

He's connected to the shrine I visited with my father before his death. I wrote about that. I have strong feelings about St. Francis. This is something to think about.

It was also the place I saw the giant Zozobra burned in their fall celebration. Burning away gloom. Incredibly magical.

I believe that physical events actually begin psychologically, before unfolding in chronological time. Maybe all events have hidden connections, but usually unnoticed.

I'm certain of it. I'm always trying to read between the lines and make the connections. All events are symbolic and the hidden connections have always fascinated me. "What message is really trying to get through?", I ask.
Events happen in many realms at once, but I do tend to think the psychological precedes the physical.

Is everything that happens imagined first?

And so I ask, now. Santa fe? Light? Creativity? RU? These wonderful surprising people? Creativity? Reverence? St. Francis?

24/7/07 10:48 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"We have to be ready and in open space internally. The externals of New Mexico certainly can lead one to that space. This is a good memory. Every moment stays with us forever. We can choose."

Yes, they stay...connections made...and realized...spilling over into conscious awareness. They awaken in your consciousness, marveling at the quality of the light.

I've been listening to Jack Johnson's mellow songs tonight.

Who's to say
What's impossible
Well they forgot
This world keeps spinning
And with each new day
I can feel a change in everything
And as the surface breaks reflections fade
But in some ways they remain the same
And as my mind begins to spread its wings
There's no stopping curiosity

I want to turn the whole thing upside down
I'll find the things they say just can't be found
I'll share this love I find with everyone
We'll sing and dance to Mother Nature's songs
I don't want this feeling to go away


Delicious feeling in the air.

24/7/07 10:53 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yes, indeed, The air. These precious moments.

It's like each experience creates another facet on the sphere that makes up our life's experiences. So the longer we live, the more multi-faceted and richer our little globe becomes. Reflecting more light as each memory is added on.

24/7/07 11:00 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"St. Francis was my favorite until recently when I began to think he was too weird, himself. A little excessive. I'm not sure now."

Well, people uniquely instantiate archetypes. That is, everyone has archetypal images with which they align, and which inform their actions and decisions, broadly. The Great Mother, the Father, the Lover, the Hermit, etc. It's like qualities and colors of light to illuminate the way. Much of astrology is about a specific set of archetypes combined in interesting ways.

So, "St. Francis" in our minds is something inclusively bigger than the idiosyncratic human being that he was.

The archetypes are transcendent, because they are bigger than we think we are. They are resonant parts of larger realities or fields of energy. They are numinous, charged, casting their light on things as if to bring out their special significance.

They are also immanent; each of them in us is but one of many such elements in the patterns of our consciousness.

So, I think of the life and legend of Francis as a conduit, or window, for a set of qualities and characteristics that can speak to us of particular knowings.

"It's like each experience creates another facet on the sphere that makes up our life's experiences. So the longer we live, the more multi-faceted and richer our little globe becomes. Reflecting more light as each memory is added on."

Beautifully put. :-) Almost like a kind of artist's palette in 3D light. The range of what people can create with something like that, is interesting to consider. Extraordinary.

From the article: "These legends exemplify the Franciscan mode of charity and poverty as well as the saint's love of the natural world. Part of his appreciation of the environment is expressed in his Canticle of the Sun, a poem written in Umbrian Italian in perhaps 1224 which expresses a love and appreciation of Brother Sun, Sister Moon, Mother Earth, Brother Fire, etc. and all of God's creations personified in their fundamental forms."

Brother Sun, Sister Moon, Mother Earth, Brother Fire, etc. -- archetypes. Well, that part fits in well enough with RU, I do think.

24/7/07 11:30 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Brother Sun, Sister Moon, Mother Earth, Brother Fire, etc. -- archetypes. Well, that part fits in well enough with RU, I do think.

Beautiful words for this sweet summer night.

This expresses a familial relationship with life. Maybe that's part of my attraction. I like this. Thanks.

My guy Fellini made a film about him and with his sardonic view, he painted him as somewhat of a madman, which I'm sure he was. Interesting portrayal.
You're right. The archetypes are subjective evoking strong singular feelings. He seems to represent passion and desire rerouted. His relationship with the nun was indicative of that.

Much of astrology is about a specific set of archetypes combined in interesting ways.

Yes. This is one of my favorite parts. I try to combine these universals with personal experience, thus adding the mythological dimension to our lives. It IS kind of a mix and match..:-)
In the end it's all symbolic. Maybe we are forever trying to bridge these worlds. The empirical with the symbolic. I can easily step into the symbolic which probably enhances my astrological skills.

25/7/07 1:23 AM  
Anonymous The_Ninth_Immortal said...

Heh, I love the mention of Fellini's work. The city as pantheon, and musing, degenerate socialites as gods, goddesses, heroes, satyrs, and nymphs.

Having weathered the Saturn-Neptune opposition, not to mention being almost done with Saturn's transit through my 12th house of imagination, fancy, and inner truth (ruled by my Pisces Sun, in turn ruled by my Sag Neptune) I find I'm, well, sort of broken...

After a lifetime of looking at everything that happened within and without me as something numinous, connected by a mysterious, sacred synchronicity, I can't seem to do it anymore.

Or, rather, it's an effort to do, where before it was a natural inclination.

Which means that while I still love myths, symbols, esoteric wisdom, and astrology in particular, I'm more likely now to see things in a more mundane way. A chair is a chair is a chair.

Yes, I still believe everything is connected in some way, and that our inner world begets our external circumstances, but to live that connection... well, that's where I'm meeting my present limits.Is that sad, or what?

I think that's another reason I've found it so hard to concentrate on filmmaking and screenwriting for the past two years. It's all a bunch of make believe!

That engine inside me that would use each feeling, each sensory stimulus, each experience as grist for the numinous mill, has temporarily (or permanently - I don't know) stilled.

Bummer...

25/7/07 7:33 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Maybe we are forever trying to bridge these worlds. The empirical with the symbolic. I can easily step into the symbolic which probably enhances my astrological skills."

The awareness of pattern, symbol and archetype falls under the province of the sixth major chakra, connected with vision and with the planet Saturn. It assists our memory of the past and our ability to intuit potentials and plan for the future. Saturnian lessons learned from past relationships and other experiences, one has the insight to see potential pitfalls and gracefully avoid them in future rather than repeating them. It links perception with command or control, the creative ability to choose from among many possibilities. Psychic vision and the ability to dissolve karmic patterns are heightened.

But not to overemphasize its importance, the upper chakras are balanced and grounded by the foundational lower ones, each a door to the next.

"Santa fe? Light? Creativity? RU? These wonderful surprising people? Creativity? Reverence? St. Francis?"

Memories can be dreamlike, especially at night. Over the external level of presentation, maybe Santa Fe and St. Francis carry reminders for you about creativity, the special insights represented by St. Francis, or about feeling states that you experienced at Santa Fe that are returning to help you. All part of your repertoire, your soul memory, the brilliant gem of stored experience from which you can draw and create anew. The striking coincidence, what psychologist Carl Jung called synchronicity, specially alerts you, heightens your awareness of that part of you.

I was reading yesterday about chakras and archetypes. Our dominant societies, I read, have fallen out of love with the world. We live in a mindset and cultural mythos of separateness, divisiveness and manipulation. Love is culturally restricted to the most limited expressions and forms, to heterosexual nuclear family dyads, with alienated children and fragmented results all around.

So, St. Francis reminds me of what it's like to live archetypically, feeling deeply connected to Brother Fire and Sister Water, to Mother Earth and Father Sky. And, expanding slightly on his meaning, to embrace in time his Sister Death, from whom those who know their essential wholeness need fear no harm.

Love has been culturally divided between agape and eros, between the spiritual and the physical-emotional, often set against each other, with humanizing philos given short shrift. But he lives in the healed heart chakra situated halfway between crown and base, symbolizing the unconditional love that synthesizes agape and eros, reconciles heaven and earth, connects body and soul in its accepting, reintegrating, transfigurative power. It is the next level up above the solar plexus chakra that I associate with self-confidence, worldly identity, and hierarchical government, and is meant to inform and guide the lower chakra through the problems that cannot be solved without its added dimensions. I think that this balancing aspect of the heart has a connection with Venus and Libran Air, offering peace and stability without restrictions.

25/7/07 9:02 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"That engine inside me that would use each feeling, each sensory stimulus, each experience as grist for the numinous mill, has temporarily (or permanently - I don't know) stilled.
     Bummer..."


Sounds almost utilitarian. LOL, to borrow a metaphor from good agricultural husbandry, perhaps you could let the fertile land lie fallow for a time of grace, so that it can renew its virtues. There is a time and season for everything.

25/7/07 9:13 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Another Fellini lover!! I do love his social commentary. He was a Capricorn with Venus in Sagittarius. I like his mixture of tragedy and humor. He seemed to get more humorous as he aged.

The city as pantheon, and musing, degenerate socialites as gods, goddesses, heroes, satyrs, and nymphs.

Good description of the Sag.

It will return, ninth i. The creative energy. When pluto gets into your Capricorn 5th you'll know. I think there is crisis well before these crossings and the 4th house is the lowest point. could be the reason for the 5th house party.

Saturn slowly builds confidence through the transit of the bottom half of the chart. The time it takes is worth it.

I think these times of despair are good as long as they lift. When joy returns the contrast makes it that much better. A 29 Cap Moon is no child. Lots of despair there, but fuels the Capricorn creative 5th, a good chance of achieving your goals in this lifetime.

Uranus isn't through with your Sun and then the biggie, Jupiter. This should restore your faith and optimism. They get lost as a prelude. The lost and found game that seems to be the story.

Another thing is Pluto coming to your nodes. I'm about to do your SN in Capricorn. Always a culprit.

I also think it's good to periodically let go of symbols. The renewed mundane could be the new identity as an earth sign ASC.

25/7/07 1:52 PM  
Blogger jm said...

perhaps you could let the fertile land lie fallow for a time of grace, so that it can renew its virtues. There is a time and season for everything.

Take it from an Earthman.

25/7/07 1:54 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The awareness of pattern, symbol and archetype falls under the province of the sixth major chakra, connected with vision and with the planet Saturn.

That's interesting. Could explain ninth's loss. Very interesting. But I'm not convinced planetarily.

It links perception with command or control

Like this idea.

maybe Santa Fe and St. Francis carry reminders for you about creativity, the special insights represented by St. Francis, or about feeling states that you experienced at Santa Fe that are returning to help you

Probably right. It was an exceptionally creative time. Just knowing don is in NM connects me again.

Love has been culturally divided between agape and eros, between the spiritual and the physical-emotional, often set against each other, with humanizing philos given short shrift.

Well, part of the problem has been, not just the separation, but the aggrandizement of agape by the religions, making it a Hallmark card kind of love rather than anything resembling the real thing. It's not an easy thing to hold in a body this kind of all encompassing feeling. I think the religions somehow give the message that it's virtually impossible for the erotic man to do this, and of course the degradation of eros in the process doesn't work too well. It's hardly a position from which to embrace feelings of love. I think St. Francis represented this as I said. I first thought he was a gentle mild mannered type, but it seem that this is not so. he was driven by some erotic intensity in his search for the divine. maybe that's always part of the drive.

You could be right about the solar plexus being a sort of crossroads. I associate it with birth and the unbilical connection and I think it could also be our spiritual connection once incarnated.

25/7/07 2:25 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Uh oh. My media player has Jack Johnson singing about metaphors.

I heard this old story before
Where the people keep on playing for their metaphors
But don't leave much up to the imagination,
So I, wanna give this imagery back
But I know it just ain’t so easy like that
So I turn the page and read the story again
and again and again
It sure seems the same, with a different name
We're breaking and rebuilding
and we're growing
always guessing

Never knowing
We're shocking but we're nothing
We're just moments, we're clever but we're clueless
We're just human, amusing and confusing
We're trying but where is this all leading?
We'll never know

It all happened so much faster than you could say disaster
Wanna take a time lapse and look at it backwards
Find the last one and maybe that’s just the answer that we're after
But after all we're just a bubble in a boiling pot
Just one breath in a chain of thought
We're moments just combusting
We feel certain but we'll never, never know
It sure seems the same, give it a different name
We're begging and we're needing
and we're trying and we're breathing

Never knowing
We're shocking but we're nothing
We're just moments, we're Clever but we're clueless
We're just human, amusing and confusing
We're helping, rebuilding and we're growing
Never Know

Knock, knock coming door to door
To tell ya that their metaphor is better than yours
And you can either sink or swim things are looking pretty grim
If you don’t believe in what they're spoon feeding
Its got no feeling so I read it again and again and again

It sure seems the same so many different names
Our hearts are strong our heads are weak
We'll always be competing

Never knowing
We're shocking but we're nothing
We're just moments, we're Clever but we're clueless
We're just human, amusing and confusing
But the truth is all we got is questions
We'll never know
Never know
Never know


Agh! It's mocking! Bad player! LOL

25/7/07 2:34 PM  
Blogger jm said...

What does he sound like? Never heard of the chap.

25/7/07 2:40 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"That's interesting. Could explain ninth's loss. Very interesting. But I'm not convinced planetarily."

Well, I'm going by an Eastern system, which is limited to the seven ancient planets, because that works okay for me. But there are other systems. Some people associate it with Uranus or Neptune instead. Very possibly, it's at least partly mind over matter and cultural magic; whatever you believe in might just appear to work that way for you.

"What does he sound like?"

My vocabulary for describing voices is limited. But here's two links.

Video wherein Jack Johnson monkeys around with Curious George:
Upside Down

"Good People" and other audio tracks:
Good People

Hawaiian born, he was a professional surfer before becoming a musician. He's not much at stage presence, apparently, but I find the singing and music very enjoyable.

25/7/07 3:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I have a tendency to think that Mercury is involved in symbolism because they are translations.

25/7/07 3:28 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Words and verbal thought make us think of Mercury, and form and pattern make us think of Saturn. Mercury is connected to learning, and Saturn to teaching.

An interesting thing about some chakra systems is that they contain subchakras, recapitulating the previous ones in sequence. So the second subchakra in the sixth chakra would have a connection with Mercury. They're not isolating mappings.

Modern astrologers think of Saturn as earthy like Capricorn and of Mercury as airy like Gemini; the meanings tend to conflate. But curiously, from ancient times, Mercury is also a ruler of an Earth sign, and Saturn has been a ruler (now co-ruler) of an air sign.

I've read before that in ancient Babylon, the planet Mercury was associated with Nabu, divine scribe and god of wisdom. Other sources assocate Nabu with Saturn as patron of justice.

The page on Mercury has a section on Jewish mysticism which associates Mercury with "individual symbols" and "the realm of the intellect"; Saturn "imposes form at a cosmic level" and Mercury "imposes form on human experience through the activity of the mind. This connection is reflected by the fact that Mercury and Saturn share the rule of the airy triplicity."

Confusing? :-) Of course, I have Mercury conjunct Saturn, so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask!

25/7/07 4:08 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I think Mercury is the most misunderstood planet in the system, which includes Gemini and Virgo.

Jupiter is associated with higher learning. Saturn is the administrator. Maybe the application of the teachings.

Learning at its best has to be done without distractions which is why Sagittarius with the ivory tower is the ruling sign. Professors are often cared for in the mundane realm so they can pursue knowledge unobstructed.

Mercury is connection. He is always involved. he connects everything with everything, learning is only part of it.

Probably all the entities are teachers, having their specific areas of expertise.

form and pattern make us think of Saturn

Logical and linear pattern. Uranus also reveals patterning. Neptune, as well, although people have a hard time following that one. The Moon has patterning as ducks follow their mothers in instinctual patterns.

A pattern itself is a symbol. A model to be followed to make something else. We probably choose our symbols among the entities to enact our own patterns of behavior.

So.

Your Mercury-saturn uses linear patterning to serve as your guide.
My Mercury-Uranus-Neptune uses tangential, obtuse, convoluted patterning.
Mercury-Moon is imaginary patterning. Feeling.
And so on.

But Mercury is the main man. The go-between. I often think his gay and light-hearted persona is his perfect cover-up so he can go everywhere freely. The only one allowed into the underworld and back up.

25/7/07 4:32 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Jupiter being associted with pure teaching. Mercury is the conduit.

Mercury is teaching too. early lessons.

25/7/07 4:35 PM  
Blogger jm said...

My rulership book says the Moon rules symbols.
A symbol is not to be taken literally, so this is why I delete Saturn in general.

25/7/07 4:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

On with Merc.

Mercury is much more than intellect. It's all connections and messages. It's the connective tissue of the body. The miles of capillaries. The warning systems of weather changes.
The birds. The harbingers. The stars as navigational tools. On and on.

25/7/07 4:45 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

Events happen in many realms at once, but I do tend to think the psychological precedes the physical.

Is everything that happens imagined first?


In energy medicine, it is believed that all physical (body) experience is a manifestation of the spiritual, which exists first. Physical matter is the densest form of existence. Spiritual body condensing to mental body, condensing to physical body, if I remember correctly.
"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience."

25/7/07 5:33 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

Well, people uniquely instantiate archetypes. That is, everyone has archetypal images with which they align, and which inform their actions and decisions, broadly. The Great Mother, the Father, the Lover, the Hermit, etc. It's like qualities and colors of light to illuminate the way. Much of astrology is about a specific set of archetypes combined in interesting ways.

Carolyn Myss's work includes this. She believes we all have an inner council of 12 archetypes (reading her book I thought to myself, "no wonder I hear so many different voices inside me, all trying to come to consensus or vie for attention!"). She believes that we all share Victim, Child, Prostitute, and Saboteur and then have 8 others. It's our job -or privilege or challenge- to figure out who they are.
This is from her book 'Sacred Contracts'.
Very interesting stuff!

25/7/07 5:41 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

I can easily step into the symbolic which probably enhances my astrological skills.

Probably? JM, I'd say you've pretty well mastered the symbolic. It is part of your inborn knowledge. you are so facile with this!
Why I love your perspective!

25/7/07 5:44 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

The awareness of pattern, symbol and archetype falls under the province of the sixth major chakra, connected with vision and with the planet Saturn. It assists our memory of the past and our ability to intuit potentials and plan for the future. Saturnian lessons learned from past relationships and other experiences, one has the insight to see potential pitfalls and gracefully avoid them in future rather than repeating them. It links perception with command or control, the creative ability to choose from among many possibilities. Psychic vision and the ability to dissolve karmic patterns are heightened.

Yippee! A blessing from dear Saturn in my first!

25/7/07 5:46 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

But Mercury is the main man. The go-between. I often think his gay and light-hearted persona is his perfect cover-up so he can go everywhere freely. The only one allowed into the underworld and back up.
Isn't Hermes Trismegistus another manifestation of Mercury? the Divine Trickster? Among other things.....

25/7/07 5:55 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"A symbol is not to be taken literally, so this is why I delete Saturn in general."

Hmm, interesting point! Symbols are focal points of energy to me, so I could also see them as condensations or crystalizations, form from essence. But I don't think any system or model is or can be entirely consistent. I feel the limits of abstract systems, and have a preference for what works situationally. It's ground-truthing in a sense.

I'm sure I have a different experience of Saturn from other people, and as I implied, that's fine. My metaphysical education asserted that things that are concrete are literalized symbols. I suspect that the appropriate use of these labels depend somewhat on angle of view and level of analysis. Holodynamically, there's something of everything in everything.

"My rulership book says the Moon rules symbols."

Before Neptune was discovered, the Moon had many of Neptune's astrological attributes, including dreams and the fantastical. So the connection with symbols makes sense to me. On the other hand, symbols of logic, maths and philosophy I tend to associate with Apollonian rationality and hence the Sun. Astrological symbols are polymorphic, a form of language, so I'm always reminded that the meaning of words is very dependent on context. Very relative: This is solar relative to that, but the same thing is lunar with respect to something else. We use what helps, I think, and that's good. :-)

25/7/07 5:59 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Carolyn Myss's work includes this. She believes we all have an inner council of 12 archetypes"

Hmm, I wonder how they came about. I think I'll take this as an opportunity read more about her ideas, thanks.

25/7/07 6:04 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

Kadimiros, it's a small contribution compared to the wisdom you share. I hope you find her work interesting.

25/7/07 6:19 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Jupiter being associated with pure teaching. Mercury is the conduit."
     Mercury is teaching too. early lessons."


An Eastern tradition calls Jupiter the inner guru or inner teacher, associating it with the fifth major chakra, which is in turn connected with voice, sound, music, arts, knowledge, intuitive hearing and spiritual memory. Mercury is connected to the second chakra and Gemini the twins, perhaps because he was originally a fertility god before he became the messenger of the gods. Yet another system puts Jupiter at the second chakra.

And some newer systems seem to associate Mercury with the fifth because of the communication aspect. Hmm! :-)

25/7/07 7:16 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Kadimiros, it's a small contribution compared to the wisdom you share."

Aw, thanks. Sometimes I think I'm just free associating. :-) But then again I'm convinced there's something more to our associative processes than commonly realized.

25/7/07 7:25 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Meristem, what a delight!

I like the idea of the council of archetypes. I think we learn to rely on some more than others through experience. The chart is exactly this. All are there, but some are drawn upon more.

Isn't Hermes Trismegistus another manifestation of Mercury? the Divine Trickster? Among other things

Yes. I love this one. I think he guards the crossroads and that's where some of the trickery comes in. In the end any route is right.

Hermes as trickster is a great one. Part of Mercury's illusiveness. you can see a lot of this in pure Gemini, which is why they are often disliked and somewhat mistrusted. This is exactly why I like them.

25/7/07 9:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

My metaphysical education asserted that things that are concrete are literalized symbols.

Could be. An apple could symbolize a lemon..:-) It's language really and we can fracture and create any way we want to.

I suppose there is never anything truly literal, so I'll go with all the entities being used symbolically at different times.

25/7/07 9:36 PM  
Blogger jm said...

"free-associating"?

Now you tell me!

25/7/07 9:39 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I really do like the council idea. It's a good description of the battles among our disparate selves as we hold meetings with all the archetypes and try to come to a workable inner government.

Different characters are required for different jobs. It adds an element of joy when looked at this way.

I'm going to pursue this. It adds to my basic premise that no one's in charge. We are ulimately free.

25/7/07 9:49 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"In the end any route is right."

I have a funny story about this. One night, my father was driving a group of us home from a trip. But in the dark night, he became uncertain. Everything looks different at night, he complained.

The lonely, unlit road stretched on to a sharp bend, around which it rose steeply up a long unlit slope. At the top of the slope, the road forked and became two roads.

He stopped the car precariously tilted just before the fork. Staring ahead into the dark at the bifurcating path, he was paralyzed by indecision for painfully long minutes. It seemed strangely unlike him. Was it age? Was he getting slower because of heart surgery and a minor stroke incident?

I turned around and looked back. I could see a glow from headlights around the bend. I turned to him and said, "It doesn't matter! Just make a decision. We'll have plenty of time to figure it out." But he sat unmoving, car at a crazy angle, blocking the narrow road.

I looked back. Now I could see headlights of one...no, two...no, three vehicles rounding the sharp bend at the foot of the steep slope. "Cars are coming," I said. "Just pick a direction. Make a decision." He kept staring perplexedly at the choice before him. "Cars are coming," I repeated. "Make a deciiiiisionnnnnnnn."

A few more excruciating minutes went by. Then, he made a decision. He made an illegal U-turn on a very steep slope and inched the car back down the narrow road towards several oncoming cars. In silence and blackest night, the cars stopped and he ever so slowly squeezed past them on a road that was designed only for single file traffic.

I sighed and rolled my eyes. We made it safely past the cars, and then he drove back the way we had come for quite a ways until we came to a bridge where a truck was idling. My father got out of the car and asked the truck driver for directions.

Upon receiving the truck driver's gestured directions, he turned the car around once more and we made our way back to the steep slope and the fork in the road.

This time he chose the rightmost branch of the fork. We traveled along that route for perhaps a quarter hour, during which time we could see distant through breaks in the trees the other branch of the fork, the road not taken.

The two roads in the night ran parallel to each other. Then, all of a sudden, they merged and became one big road, which soon merged with other roads and became a well-known highway. Sure again of his bearings, my father got us safely home.

25/7/07 10:46 PM  
Blogger jm said...

OMG!!

Fabulous, kadimiros!!
Just fabulous!

Thank you my dear friend. You are something, even if you do free associate!

Oh oh oh.

25/7/07 11:29 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"It's a good description of the battles among our disparate selves as we hold meetings with all the archetypes and try to come to a workable inner government."

That's a great way to put it. I sense a lot of creative possibilities. Although astrology charts share the same planets, the archetypes can be expressed in many ways. Speaking of inner government in this context provokes the question of the archetypes or self-imagery that influence the behavior of nations and their governments. Intriguing. You have expressed the idea that the USA isn't living up to its potential as yet. Perhaps a misexpression, misalignment or losing sight of its founding archetypes.

"Thank you my dear friend. You are something, even if you do free associate!"

I'm glad you enjoyed the story!
:-) There's a lesson or two in the story somewhere, I think. Heheh! And thank you for being so stimulating as to help elicit these thoughts and images.

26/7/07 12:14 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"An apple could symbolize a lemon"

Heh! Speaking of free associating, I get the word "sour" for that, as in sour apples and sour lemons. But I admit I do have a preference for the lemon over the apple, mixed with a bit of sweetener and lots of water.

26/7/07 12:24 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm very excited about this inner government concept and I'm going to put it into practice right away.

You have expressed the idea that the USA isn't living up to its potential as yet. Perhaps a misexpression, misalignment or losing sight of its founding archetypes.

Excellent thought and you could be onto something, since the USA just got her identity established with Pluto across the ASC. So she is just coming into the archetype. 1st time transit. Inspirational international leadership. Jupiter. Teacher. Maybe the work on our inner government is coming with Capricorn. Couldn't be a better choice. How we mold the archetype remains to be seen. You're right. They all have infinite possibilities. I can't help but think that these very conversations we're having here will influence this council.

thank you for being so stimulating as to help elicit these thoughts and images.

My complete pleasure. What a sumptuous buffet we have here. Your story proves the power of story-telling. It brought my idea home in a beautiful full round way that made me feel all is well.

26/7/07 12:28 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I prefer the lemon myself. What an exciting fruit.

26/7/07 12:30 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I think of the color first, then the flavor in terms of association.

26/7/07 12:32 AM  
Blogger meristem said...

I'm very excited about this inner government concept

When I read Caroline's work about the archetypes it made so much sense to me that I immediately recognized it as a Truth. It put so many things to rest for me and gives me tools for dealing with all those different parts of myself. Yes, I can recognize those voices now, and envision them even (anthropomorphizing the archetypes to suit my aesthetic) as they discuss or argue or wax poetic.

When I first began working with the book, I had some very eye-opening insights, a couple of which it has taken me a year or two to come to grips with: the Addict mostly, and the Princess, though I recognized her immediately....
Bringing them out of the shadows and to the council table has done immeasurable good.
In fact, I'm still not sure I know who all 12 of mine are. Some are still shadowy, or either I'm not ready to make friends with them yet, acknowledge their existence...
And learn from them of course!

26/7/07 6:10 AM  
Blogger meristem said...

Oh yeah, and now with all that I'm learning about astrology, I see the map or 'code' for these archetypes.
Nice to know that I am being exactly how I'm supposed to be, how I'm made, and not 'defective'.

26/7/07 9:40 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I can recognize those voices now, and envision them even (anthropomorphizing the archetypes to suit my aesthetic) as they discuss or argue or wax poetic."

That sounds like a great way to bring things into clearer consciousness and resolve issues. Giving each aspect of the personality the floor to speak and make a case for their positions, and opening communications and flow of energy between aspects that may have been working at cross-purposes or at least without coordination.

I think this is where the executive level of the mind can step in to interview, sum up, weigh, balance and steer or conduct -- making us "ultimately free" as jm said.

"And learn from them of course!"

Yes. I can imagine dialoguing, as well as convening a council to request its input and cooperation on issues.

We could think of the outer government as being driven by runaway archetypes, with the executive branch abandoning its core imperatives.

The outer government should eventually come to reflect our abilities, each of us, to wisely govern our respective individual selves.

Great stuff, this idea you brought up of working consciously with archetypes. :-)

26/7/07 12:03 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

I'm told that in some eastern traditions, there are tools and invocations to invoke, strengthen or counteract astrological forces.

I think that this discussion we've had here raises things to a new level of understanding.

26/7/07 12:26 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Nice to know that I am being exactly how I'm supposed to be, how I'm made, and not 'defective'.

Perfect way of putting it. The minuses in the chart are actually part of the gestalt that makes it work right.

The idea of defectiveness is a great one. This is the negative power ploy that is so popular. Diminishing someones make-up, not the the application of herself to the job. Oh I hope this changes. The so called defects are so often assets. Or they can be.
It's not like mass produced commodities that do have defects. We're all unique so who can say what's right or wrong?

Great stuff, this idea you brought up of working consciously with archetypes

I agree with kad. This is one of the best ideas yet. It just sparked something the minute I read it. Oddly, I knew something about Carolyn's work and have thought forever about archetypes, but somehow this time I got it. Very very interesting. Thank you so much meristem. I hope we can carry this forward and keep it going. Maybe a sign of the changing times.

26/7/07 1:38 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm told that in some eastern traditions, there are tools and invocations to invoke, strengthen or counteract astrological forces.

I think that this discussion we've had here raises things to a new level of understanding.


Yes. Astrology is in the midst of a revolution. We are equal to the chart, so if we want to use it, we can, if we want to bypass it, we can do that too. And it does include the archetypal concepts as springboards.

It's a blueprint of the cosmic alignment and can be interpreted and used any way at all. Some of the fatalistic aspect is leaving, along with the predictive. The predictive applys to the natal chart as well. Any placement is up for modification by the individual.

It reminds me of yoga and other disciplines. The chart can be used to develop personal mastery and will as we work consciously with ourselves with the blueprint as guide through specific techniques of our own making. I think we are meant to change the original makeup into something of our own creation. Maybe a re-creation of ourselves is what life is all about.

So, for example, as we head into Pluto in Capricorn we can speculate from the ancient teachings, but how it happens this time remains to be seen. Perfect mixture of history and future, both fictional.

26/7/07 1:49 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Meristem, it would be absolutely wonderful if you could bring in your interpretation of Carolyn's archetypes and how you've used them. I would like to learn this from you, rather than a book.

Giving each aspect of the personality the floor to speak and make a case for their positions, and opening communications and flow of energy between aspects that may have been working at cross-purposes or at least without coordination.

What a great idea.

The outer government should eventually come to reflect our abilities, each of us, to wisely govern our respective individual selves.

It will.

The council is in session.

26/7/07 1:54 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

Wow. I totally love this. I've hungered for the sharing of ideas like these (not just the these here these, but all that take place here at RU). Conversation greases the wheel, opens up channels to wisdom that feel transcendant. So thank you.

I need to collect my thoughts because my brain feel like a fire hydrant that has been opened and I can't type fast enough!
Be back...

26/7/07 6:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm so excited meristem. I've got lots of specific ideas already and blog entries will be forthcoming.

Take your sweet time. There's a lot to cover and I like to savor it all.

We can investigate your 1st house Saturn as archetype and how he can be used in your self governing, his area of expertise.

I am psyched.

26/7/07 9:36 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Giving each aspect of the personality the floor to speak and make a case for their positions, and opening communications and flow of energy between aspects that may have been working at cross-purposes or at least without coordination.

Again this is such a great idea. A specific exercise could develop.

We could think of the outer government as being driven by runaway archetypes, with the executive branch abandoning its core imperatives.

The outer government should eventually come to reflect our abilities, each of us, to wisely govern our respective individual selves.


I love love love this idea of an inner executive. That's Pluto in Capricorn.

26/7/07 9:43 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I love love love this idea of an inner executive. That's Pluto in Capricorn."

That sounds quite penetrating and powerful. I'm picturing the devil in a sleek dark suit. Very elegant! Magnetic, yang with a lot of yin. Perhaps with subtle dark on dark pinstripes.

The characteristics of Pluto do seem to have some affinity. Mythologically, he is kind of a hidden ruler of spiritual realms.

Astrologically, Pluto absorbed some traditional qualities of Saturn, ruler of Capricorn, and it was assigned rulership of Scorpio traditionally ruled by Mars. Whereas Saturn in astrology is identified with form and structure, Pluto tends to be viewed as gradually breaking down structures, often in an evolutionary, transformational way. People immediately think of negative archetypes associated with Pluto, but there are also positive ones such as therapists, healers, and those spiritual leaders who intimately know spiritual transformation, the death of the personality and rebirth of the soul. Is Pluto any more about destruction than it is about regeneration?

I wonder why war god Mars is considered exalted in Capricorn while fateful Pluto is feared, and how the idea of evolutionary change can be connected meaningfully to Capricorn. Perhaps I should not expect consistency. :-) It could be about transformation of the way things are managed.

There are suggestions that Pluto in Capricorn portends excess control in some way. I am not sure as yet that Pluto can really be about dictatorial control as it is about inherently necessary change.

I think people could react against the need for unpalatable personal and social evolution by imposing control, and some could try to take advantage of chaotic circumstances and destabilized structures by grabbing for power.

We do know from business psychology, that when established organizations are robust and stable, then power-hungry personalities with a measure of psychopathology, find it much more difficult to advance and gain influence. When there is chaos, they see easier opportunities to manipulate and reshape that attract them. But these personalities, although they rise to power as agents of Pluto, typically abuse (Pluto's) power. They wreak destruction in their path. They are not in control themselves. Historical, political examples suggest that such personalities are subject to the Plutonian opposition that they stir up.

Interestingly, although associated with higher perception, mental vision and therefore awareness of patterns and forms, the name of the sixth major chakra is actually literally translated as "command" or "control". So it is the command chakra or center of control.

On reflection, this probably sorts out the question of Mercury here, because it seems to me that the chakra as traditionally conceived would not be identified with the changeable patterns themselves, but the hurricane's central eye that is calm amidst the hail of phenomena that is earthly experience. It is the preeminent place of meditation. It also seems connected with images of the hermit, the yogi or buddha, who do seem to evidence a kind of inner discipline that they find freeing. Maybe they have more free will and real spontaneity because they can harness the elements of their nature rather than being driven by them. Perhaps having command of their faculties and being free go together in a way that has nothing to do with dominating anyone else.

So, Pluto in Capricorn, yeah. Last time around was the American Revolution, I read. Good, bad -- dunno! Depends on whom one asks. :-) What was the Revolution supposed to be about again? Hmm.

27/7/07 9:46 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Is Pluto any more about destruction than it is about regeneration?

Pluto is mostly about regeneration. I think the destruction is done largely by other entities. For example, in Roman myth, Pluto comes in AFTER death.

Pluto is what is unseen. He wears a mask when he's on the earth. So he's connected with the unconscious, thus therapy, healing, magic, etc. And fear. Fear acts as a guide to healing places when we're ready so Pluto is a crossing of dangerous waters to get eventually to the Elysian Fields. I love the mythology of Pluto.

Pluto tends to be viewed as gradually breaking down structures, often in an evolutionary, transformational way.

It was the combination of Pluto and Saturn plus Mars on the Capricorn SN that brought the Trade Towers down. Mars probably was responsible for the explosions. Saturn for the "symbolic" structure. Pluto for the evolution.

Uh-oh! Now that I think about it you might be right about Saturn and symbol.:-)

So it's impossible to say what destruction will occur with Pluto in Cap. It might be more rebuilding from the unconscious levels. The destruction could largely be over. Weakened infrastructure will be getting attention, so what to tear down and what to preserve will be decided.

I wonder why war god Mars is considered exalted in Capricorn while fateful Pluto is feared, and how the idea of evolutionary change can be connected meaningfully to Capricorn.

This is interesting. I read it after I wrote the above paragraph about the Towers. Mars' danger is underestimated. I think in Capricorn he is toned down enough to become highly useful. Pluto is overestimated probably because he's hidden. This makes the recent diminishing of planetary status and illusory power all the more interesting. Throws a wild card into the upcoming transit.

It could be about transformation of the way things are managed.

That's going to be an important part of it, and why the council idea took off.

I'll get this posted and go on to the rest. Very very good stuff. The idea of evolutionary change connected to Capricorn is the crux. The reason Pluto transits are so slow.

27/7/07 1:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There are suggestions that Pluto in Capricorn portends excess control in some way. I am not sure as yet that Pluto can really be about dictatorial control as it is about inherently necessary change.

It only means excessive control if it's necessary. If people are dying everywhere unable to govern at all, dictators arise. They have to. It is impossible for one to emerge without exactly the right conditions.

Here there will be some excessive control, as in the smoking laws which should be repealed by the end of the transit. But nothing like a dictatorship since it's not needed.

Dictators are associated with the selfish, fixed signs. Taurus and Leo. This dynastic leadership here of the past years, and the disatrous attempt at one party takeover, could be part of the Pluto in Leo generation's rule, soon to wind down.

Capricorn can be controlling but it's not for personal gain. So any excess coming up will be part of the necessary process of self control as a society, back to the inner council idea. It might not seem that way while it's happening but will reveal itself in retrospect. The high gas prices for example restricting mileage, very hard for a travel loving Sag rising country. It will take many forms.

I think people could react against the need for unpalatable personal and social evolution by imposing control, and some could try to take advantage of chaotic circumstances and destabilized structures by grabbing for power.

This is always going on. After the The Trade Towers is a perfect example. Didn't work. The question is how destabilized will we get here? Probably not very. We have a natal Pluto in Capricorn always keeping things under control fundamentally. Another thing to remember is that Pluto and Saturn are in harmonious sextile astrologically.

When there is chaos, they see easier opportunities to manipulate and reshape that attract them.

The chaotic times are now with the Pisces transits and the Saturn-Neptune. Soon to end. Pluto in Cap will probably be about re-establishing order.

Historical, political examples suggest that such personalities are subject to the Plutonian opposition that they stir up.

Excellent point. Hitler rose when Pluto was discovered. This was a watershed historical moment and it will be a long time before it's needed again. Localized dictatorship will continue as need "dictates" but monolithic omnipotent dictatorship isn't the ticket. The idea will get more and more ludicrous.

Maybe they have more free will and real spontaneity because they can harness the elements of their nature rather than being driven by them. Perhaps having command of their faculties and being free go together in a way that has nothing to do with dominating anyone else.

Absolutely. Not being dominated from within means not dominating others. Simple.

Great question about the American Rev. Good? Bad? neutral?

Here is one major factor. The point was "taxation without representation". This is happening again as the ruling class is not paying taxes and the taxpayers are out of the lawmaking process. In 2010 the ball will get rolling on this when the tax laws expire.

This is wonderful conversation.

27/7/07 2:35 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Another important thing, which I repeat so often, is the "us against them" mentality which is so useless. We are all part of one system. The powerful rulers are necessary as part of the maintenance at this point. The ethics will be up for change in Capricorn.

Abuse of power will always occur, but the thing to take note of is that good use of power is happening concurrently. All we need to do as a society is recognize this. The abuse then will automatically recede. We can't execute them, jail them, cross examine them endlessly, and so on. They will continue acting true to their natures. the antidote is the correct way, and this will emerge when the times are ready. This is why the focus should shift to our inner governments and that means more local work in our communities as a symbol of this evolution. Work on what can be effective. That's one thing Saturn tries to teach. Effective management. The sooner we do it, the better it will feel. And that includes managing our collective emotions.

27/7/07 2:54 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"It might be more rebuilding from the unconscious levels. The destruction could largely be over. Weakened infrastructure will be getting attention, so what to tear down and what to preserve will be decided."

My inclination is to think that Capricorn is sobering, and not too traumatic of itself with Pluto.

Well...okay, so Persephone being kidnapped was a bummer. No more eternal spring and summer, after all. The introduction of fall and winter. But the myth also tells us that Pluto could be negotiated with. He can be reasonable.

So, it may be highly focused and willful, but the direction needn't be too scary -- at least it should be useful! So maybe Pluto/Capricorn at its best provokes useful fear...as winter approaches, and we contemplate our shrinking options.

I do think it's an interesting time we live in. We now have political candidates responding to the general population's posted questions in video format on-line. A small shift perhaps, but telling, moving in the direction of responsiveness, a growing willingness to deal. Hopefully, that'll be good for foreign relations, too, in the political realm.

"The question is how destabilized will we get here? Probably not very. We have a natal Pluto in Capricorn always keeping things under control fundamentally. Another thing to remember is that Pluto and Saturn are in harmonious sextile astrologically."

I think in the worst case scenario, we will still squeak by, even if we pay for missteps for a long time to come. I'm not predicting that it would get that bad, though, not yet.

Capricorn is pragmatic, grounded, cardinal, so this placement of Pluto....Well, I just remembered that I have Pluto natally in Virgo. So. Ahem. Extrapolating, let's say people born with Pluto/Capricorn will have revolutionary unorthodox ideas about time management. HA HA!! Four-day work weeks and flexitime will become the norm, no doubt.

"Great question about the American Rev. Good? Bad? neutral?"

Seriously, some good ideas back then. Needing refinement and evolution, of course. On the sticky side, there's national karma accrued over the past couple of centuries, and the roots of that have something to do with the negative reputation and interactions with other nations. I'll bet it'll be worked out, eventually, because the founding imperatives have been truly powerful and ground-breaking.

Come to think of it, the term "ground-breaking" sounds Plutonian to me in this context. Earthquake. Mother Earth opened a rift and he popped out of her womb in a horse-driven chariot to kidnap the flower princess Persephone and so on. ;-p And (according to the myth) that's why we have fall (Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius) and winter (Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces) in addition to spring and summer. Some food for thought there.

Anyway, as you point out, Pluto/Capricorn is in the nation's natal pattern. It's evolutionary, it will have its way, and either disrupt or erupt to regenerate...the ways in which we construct/structure our experience, strategically plan our utilization of space/time, manage our resources and assets. (More free associating here.)

"In 2010 the ball will get rolling on this when the tax laws expire. ...The ethics will be up for change in Capricorn."

Maybe spurred on by ethics problems brought shockingly into conscious awareness.

"...good use of power is happening concurrently. All we need to do as a society is recognize this. The abuse then will automatically recede. We can't execute them, jail them, cross examine them endlessly, and so on."

I think they spur society to do better in evolving a better, live, responsive system. This would be the regeneration and rebirth part of the transformation.

"This is why the focus should shift to our inner governments and that means more local work in our communities as a symbol of this evolution. Work on what can be effective. That's one thing Saturn tries to teach. Effective management. The sooner we do it, the better it will feel. And that includes managing our collective emotions."

You're on a roll. :-)

Yes, expressing the inner government through grounded action in our local communities. The constructive action component is the part that some people don't get, and they just go round and round in their heads whilst staring hypnotized at Pluto's mythically charged emissaries. But it can begin simply for each person, with a first step.

By the way, I notice today that your blog is listed in the Favorite Blogs sidebar at AstroFutureTrends: Astrology within and without. The blogger has quite a fair number of blog posts looking ahead to Pluto in Capricorn. Among them are "Pluto in Capricorn: Goats vs. Nerve Gas" and "Pluto in Capricorn: It's coming and it's not so bad".

I like his take on the Harry Potter movie, too. Makes me curious about his new astrology book.

27/7/07 5:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

My inclination is to think that Capricorn is sobering, and not too traumatic of itself with Pluto.

My inclination as well.

But the myth also tells us that Pluto could be negotiated with. He can be reasonable.

Excellent point.

So maybe Pluto/Capricorn at its best provokes useful fear...as winter approaches, and we contemplate our shrinking options.

Very good. This is what I want. Use of fear. I love the winter shrinking options idea.

We now have political candidates responding to the general population's posted questions in video format on-line.

I think this is quite big actually. Direct communication with the people. Very big.

The miscreants:
I think they spur society to do better in evolving a better, live, responsive system. This would be the regeneration and rebirth part of the transformation.

Absolutely.

Kadimiros!!! Thanks for the astroblog information! Oh my.
Will read and return, Also on the mythology discussed above.

We are truly on a roll under this Capricorn Moon.

27/7/07 5:44 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

This is very cool. You've gotten me intrigued with Pluto's transition. :-)

27/7/07 6:12 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Ha ha, I am not alone. He pictures the political candidates having their weekly performances harshly critiqued by the three American Idol judges, too. But he does it with an astrological spin.

Well, probably someday people really will vote by telephone and by Internet.

27/7/07 7:10 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

This is why the focus should shift to our inner governments and that means more local work in our communities as a symbol of this evolution.

To jump in on this it made me think of what Kad said about the coming pluto transit and the Am. Revolution. The government created as a result was (is?!) a Democracy. Democracy at the time was designed for small communities where everyone knew, interacted with and depended on everyone else in the village. No where to hide. you bought your horseshoes from your local chosen representative in the gov't, for example. Government was direct and participatory. your voice was heard and cared about because your representative knew his constituents personally.
Now the country is too big for such a Democracy to function under its original design and intent.
So what you mentioned there, Jm is maybe the best way for us to take back Dmeocracy in its highest form.
The inner council!
If we govern ourselves well, in our immediate communities won't it have a ripple effect?
I guess that's idealistic, but frankly, that's the only power I feel like I have.
The machine doesn't feel accessible to me. And I selfishly feel like I don't want to invest a part-time job's worth of effort getting involved. Perhaps that's a cop-out. We all have our part to play......

27/7/07 7:14 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

I want to respond about Carolyn's take on the archetypes. I'm trying to decide if I should let Mercury in Virgo do the explaining or NN in Pisces!

Ok, here goes:
the most valuable part of the exercise was being able to give form and framework to the eternal wisdom of the different voices and ways of knowing that I find within. Archetypes!
I had never thought about it before in a personal way. I knew from various Jungian studies that we are all influenced by archetypes, but didn't think about how they inhabit me as an individual. The idea was utterly captivating and made complete sense. Another tool to know myself better and evolve and grow (Saturn in Taurus 1st house). Yippee!
The book is a workbook of sorts, helping the reader create a dialogue of discovery, seeking the essence of our inner archetypes.
It was hugely challenging at times but some of the archetypes just popped up and waved their arms saying "here i am! yoo hoo!"
The challenges were brought by the archetypes in me that were/are in shadow (the Addict for instance), the ones I have resistance to accepting.
The other challenge is in discerning between or among some that seem close but still distinct. Am I artist or poet or scribe? Healer, visionary, or seeker? Hedonist, lover or poet? Judge, detective, analyst? Hermit, mystic or seeker?

I'm also not convinced that there are just 12, but I think she emphasized that we likely have shades of many more, yet she has come to find that we have 12 major council members.
12, hmmm..... 12 houses...

I love the idea of personifying them in my psyche and imagining them in their various costumes parading around with their own agendas and occasionally coming together at a round table where they could all be heard and give voice to their needs, wisdom, etc.
Like ritual, like externalizing intangible things to gain perspective as in shamanistic ceremonies.

So this is where I am now seeing correlation with astrology.
Moon in Aries, Warrior. But for me it feels more like an emotional warrior, courageous (strength of heart-coeur in French). So I customize the Warrior?
Healer: Pluto in Virgo?
Visionary or Psychic or Mystic?: Neptune in Scorpio, NN in Pisces
Poet: NN in Pisces?
Scribe, Poet: Mercury in Virgo 5th house?
Addict: Neptune in Scorpio?
Princess (trying to learn to be a Queen): Saturn in Taurus, 1st house?

See where I'm going?

So I have enjoyed naming my different states when one is dominant for a day or a few hours.
When I'm feeling regal and poised and gracious or in need of deference, is that when Princess is at the helm?
Or when I'm in a watery, emotional, dramatic, otherworldy and devil-may-care frame of mind/heart, am I under the reins of the Poetess/Addict?
etc.
So if I know these archetypes i don't have to feel crazy, I can recognize them and ask for their help or their desires or whatever.
Sometimes it makes me think of Sybil (remember the movie with Sally Field? well, those were highly-unintegrated facets, obviously, but an extreme example).

I caught the beauty of this way of regarding the archetypal forces after reading Tori Amos' book. She described how in her artistic or personal life (don't think she separates them, how could one really? unless you're me :) she would invoke Venus or Pele or ask for their guidance or blessing or wisdom to inform her, influence her. Like she was dipping into the Great Archetypal Well. I found it beautiful and brilliant. It inspired me, caught me, made sense to me.
People used to have conversations and rituals with the gods and goddesses in a way that was more direct than abstract. And we've lost that. But why not address the elements directly? We'd probably get clearer communication from them if we did.
So, finding the aspects of these eternal forces within me has helped. I'm not very fluent or active about it. Mercury gobbled up the concepts and runs on to the next thing. I can hardly keep up with him.
It makes me think of kj/sige and how she talks about Aries being away, wandering off, having adventures and gathering experiences, etc. and she gets a break from him but gets to enjoy his fruits when he returns.
it is so beautiful to me this way of relating.

Whew, okay. My head hurts but my heart has wings.

It is hard to have the seventh chakra open so wide when it doesn't get enough stimulation lately....

Does this answer your curiosity JM? Or at least some of it?

27/7/07 8:00 PM  
Blogger jm said...

OMG meristem. You think like I do!

Democracy at the time was designed for small communities where everyone knew, interacted with and depended on everyone else in the village.

This is my focus. I believe that the problems are due to mismanagement because of size.

I guess that's idealistic, but frankly, that's the only power I feel like I have.
The machine doesn't feel accessible to me. And I selfishly feel like I don't want to invest a part-time job's worth of effort getting involved. Perhaps that's a cop-out. We all have our part to play......


I don't think it's idealistic at all. I think it's a necessity. The top is falling so the bottom has to be built now. There are wonderful developments in my city.

I feel exactly the same way. I won't vote for any of those at the top right now, Democrats included. someone is going to have to jump in this fall, or I might just wait for evolution. It's just as important to remove support from what we don't think is good government. Instead I'll put my vote where I feel it will be useful. Right here in my community.

The end result will be this. The dissatisfaction with national gov't, which is growing exponentially nationwide, will reroute into local action. Pluto in Capricorn.

27/7/07 8:14 PM  
Blogger jm said...

American Idol is perfect!

27/7/07 8:16 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yes! meristem. This is great. I know like you did the truth of the matter. The thing I want to do most is engage them all in the roundtable, and I love the idea of using 12. When you get a hold of your fingers, I'd like to know which one of yours you think is the leader. and which one is the one you'd most like to cultivate and make more powerful.

27/7/07 8:22 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I've been carrying on a dialogue between my Aries and Cancer for years but not in terms of the archetype. This has already been added. The Aries-Cancer is the emotional warrior just like your Moon in Aries.

I'm very interested in Saturn since I put him in the executive office. A great way to approach life with Saturn in the 1st. Instead of a wall, the chairman.

27/7/07 8:25 PM  
Blogger jm said...

BTW, this is what just happened this evening (Kadi you'll love it!)

The advanced nurse I met the other day phoned me awhile ago. During the conversation the inner selves came up and I said, "Do you know about Carolyn Myss?"
Just at that moment the connection disappeared. When she returned she said to me, "Carolyn Myss says....".

I shrieked and asked if she'd heard me, and she, of course, said no. She was referring to something else entirely. Myss's attitude toward cigarettes.

27/7/07 8:52 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

At this point the overarching challenge for me feels like integration.
I was just reminded of the new term for a particular type of person: Scanner. A mod version of the Renaissance person, or dilettante. Barbara Sher, whose books I've not read, has made it her life's work to help those of us who feel pulled in 1000s of directions at once, never finishing a project because of the blessing of abundant ideas and inspirations.
Ah, yes. I'm often haunted by the descriptor that one of Dad's old girlfriends used: Jack-of-all-Trades, Master-of-None. It was pejorative coming from her, in reference to herself (internalized from some adult of influence) and a warning directed at me. But if that's who I am, then maybe I should learn to adore and value all I find in my treasure chest full of rubies and emeralds, opals, gold nugget, amber, salt, and pearl, and not feel that I have to choose just one to bejewel my crown.....

So yes, which finger?
Who will help facilitate integration?
Perhaps there are different governors/esses for different stages of life?
SO MANY LAYERS!

27/7/07 8:56 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

Holy #*&@!

Wow.

Yes, Carolyn's take on cigarettes (or any addictive substance or habit) had a profound affect on me. Of course, I have to understand the 'why' of my smoking (which I quit BTW, two weeks ago) in order to overcome it.

How amazing the synchronicity!
I LOVE SYNCHRONICITY!
From the Divine Messenger, of course...
We're onto something here.

Well, duh :)

27/7/07 8:59 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

I'm very curious to see how your connection with this mysterious nurse unfolds...
Amazing

27/7/07 9:00 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

A la prochaine.
And thanks for the delicious food for thought.......

27/7/07 9:01 PM  
Blogger jm said...

those of us who feel pulled in 1000s of directions at once, never finishing a project because of the blessing of abundant ideas and inspirations.

That's me!!

amber, salt, and pearl

Nice sequence.

I associate you a lot with Mercury and thus all the directions at once. But with that comes the fleet foot able to keep up.

Pisces and Virgo are also mutable which is more of the multifaceted experience.

So yes, which finger?
Who will help facilitate integration?


I'm not really a great believer in this thing called integration. What would be the fun in that? Kad and I talk about this often, how the fragmentation catches the light and makes the breakup of the whole beautiful.

I think maybe there is a flow of movement among the selves that is the key and loving their differences, calling on them for each specific job. I really love this pantheon idea.

Virgos are always in a tizzy, though, no matter what. Part of their charm to me.

Wow! The smoking! That's a biggie.

The nurse is interesting. That was quite a moment. monday night I'm going to meet her for the first time. We're going to get together for some music. She's a musician, too.

And guess what?? I smoke when I party, so I'm going to share a few with her. Haven't had one in many many moons.

I'm very curious about your path with the cigs. It's interesting, this smoking thing. Can you tell which goddess is the one who enjoys the fiery sticks?

27/7/07 9:14 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And thank YOU for this great addition to the table!

27/7/07 9:15 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I'm also not convinced that there are just 12, but I think she emphasized that we likely have shades of many more, yet she has come to find that we have 12 major council members."

I took a quick glance at her Web site. It seems that she asks people to recognize the four basic "survival" archetypes that she believes nearly everyone has, and then to pick eight other archetypes intuitively. There is a helpful list of at least 70 archetypes on her site. As you intimated, some of these are related closely to each other, but are distinct enough to warrant individual consideration.

She seems to insist on a count of twelve as a manageable number for people to start working with at first. It doesn't mean that a thirteenth or fourteenth archetype might not be nearly as strong as the twelfth one, but for the purposes of her exercise she wants people to figure out which are really the twelve most prominent in one's life. It does make it simpler because she asks people to intuitively place them on the wheel of the zodiac and the astrological houses, which are traditionally twelvefold structures.

As a later development, she mentions adding concentric rings to the wheel, so that there can be 24, then 36 archetypes forming a complex portrait. I don't see this described clearly on her Web site, so it may be in one of her books.

These archetypes are not directly correlated to any of the planetary forces nor the aspects, but I suppose that an astrologer could view them as archetypal personas that stand in for typical expressions of them.

I did not fully complete the process she describes, but amusingly so far I have Child (which variant of Child I am not quite sure yet) in the 1st House; Magician in the 3rd House of "Siblings, Self-Expression and Power Of Choice"; either Prince or Poet in the 5th House of "Creativity and Good Fortune"; Artist in the 8th; Hermit, Monk, or Mystic (I am undecided about these three and have to narrow them down) in the 9th House of "Wisdom: spirituality, publishing, travel"; and Visionary in the 12th House of "The Unconscious". I am undecided about a few more. Then, I realized that I am not restricted to using only the ones on her lists, so I am stopping the process right there, to consider whether I can think of any more archetypes or variants.

"Sometimes it makes me think of Sybil (remember the movie with Sally Field? well, those were highly-unintegrated facets, obviously, but an extreme example)."

Yes, it's an intriguing idea that I've come across before. Personalities may normally be composed of subordinate energy patterns that might have taken the lead in their own right. Or maybe they were or will be, in past or future incarnations. Which ones become dominant or emphasized is probably open.

"I love the idea of personifying them in my psyche and imagining them in their various costumes parading around with their own agendas and occasionally coming together at a round table where they could all be heard and give voice to their needs, wisdom, etc.
Like ritual, like externalizing intangible things to gain perspective as in shamanistic ceremonies."


I really like that idea, too. I am going to let it percolate a bit. :-) In fact, I can imagine making paper-mache masks. A geographer friend has a hobby drawing a private offbeat comic strip, wherein one of the characters, an aspiring actress, has a collection of magical masks that she can wear that allows her to temporarily become other personalities. They "change her temperament...to one of many different paradigms. This may make an encounter with her a titillating or downright shocking experience, depending on your perspective."

27/7/07 9:41 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

I wrote, "she asks people to intuitively place them".

The procedure I started to follow, as described on her Web site, is to write the names of archetypes on pieces of paper, shuffle them while concentrating, and then placements are done by blindly picking pieces of paper without reading them.

27/7/07 9:45 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I shrieked and asked if she'd heard me, and she, of course, said no. She was referring to something else entirely. Myss's attitude toward cigarettes."

LOL! That's great. :-) The universe is such a trickster and punster sometimes. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that its communicating to us via the right brain hemisphere.

27/7/07 9:51 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

The incident does suggest that the two of you are connecting readily at unconscious levels. :-)

27/7/07 9:54 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I'm not really a great believer in this thing called integration. What would be the fun in that? Kad and I talk about this often, how the fragmentation catches the light and makes the breakup of the whole beautiful."

Might depend on what they mean by integration. Integration should mean being able to appreciate the prismatic gem in its entirety, and the interrelationships of angles and perspectives, rather than seeing only one facet at a time and having amnesia about all of the other facets.

27/7/07 10:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Personalities may normally be composed of subordinate energy patterns that might have taken the lead in their own right. Or maybe they were or will be, in past or future incarnations. Which ones become dominant or emphasized is probably open.

I think this pretty well describes it. The past incarnations can actually be within this lifetime. I think we reincarnate all the time as we go. The choice of dominance is a fascinating one and doesn't this verify my theory of hierarchy?

To me it doesn't matter which ones are chosen, but how they are brought together to cooperate. And how the threatening ones can be incorporated to see their value.

It's mostly the concept I'm after. The basic inner government premise. So we are acting out rather than being acted upon.

27/7/07 10:06 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"...which goddess is the one who enjoys the fiery sticks?"

Maybe its Native American. :-)

"Sky Woman began to fall to earth, and as she fell she brought with her two main plants of Tobacco and Strawberry. The water animals watched her descend. In preparation for her, the muskrat took bits of dirt and carried them to the surface of the water. The dirt was placed on the back of the sea turtle, and it is here where Sky Woman landed. The plants she was carrying took seed and continued to grow as Strawberry and Tobacco on what is now known as Turtle Island.
     "Tobacco was symbolic of the initiation of life, while strawberries symbolized the afterlife. Tobacco was given honour as a plant of a heavenly nature. When Tobacco is burned the smoke rises, which provides the link to all the spirits beyond the sky. Tobacco was a gift that was given to Aboriginal people, and it had a spiritual place within our community. This carried with it a great honour.
     "Pipes are also tools that assisted with communicating with the spiritual world. Therefore smoking Tobacco in pipes was held in a high regard, as symbols of communication with higher powers and great symbols of peace. The pipe was a communicator, a strong symbol of peace when oral language and speech became barriers to communicating."

27/7/07 10:10 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Integration should mean being able to appreciate the prismatic gem in its entirety, and the interrelationships of angles and perspectives, rather than seeing only one facet at a time and having amnesia about all of the other facets.

Yes, appreciation being the operative word.

The same thing applies to our individuation from the cosmic whole at birth. We are a facet and perceiving the entirty is an added pleasure, but the facet is our incarnation and our special part of the whole. remembering is a good idea.

27/7/07 10:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The pipe was a communicator, a strong symbol of peace when oral language and speech became barriers to communicating.

Very intersting. The rituals on the bar stools, an ancient one. the connection between communication and smoking. A good one to try and figure out. One of most universal acts of humanity and a great equalizer. Always ritualistic, I'm sure.

27/7/07 10:14 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Integration should mean being able to appreciate the prismatic gem in its entirety..."

In other words, I think that the important part of integration is in the complete perception. An awareness how elements complement each other, of unitive synthesis that depends on variety, is an example of the part of us that has the integration function in perception. Picking only the "light" side of a trait to identify with, and rejecting the "shadow" only to project it onto outcast or disfavored groups in society, would be unintegrated.

27/7/07 10:15 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"She's a musician, too."

Music, medicine, and metaphysics.

Equals "Mmm". Well, that's a potent mixture. :-)

27/7/07 10:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yes. Integration in terms of complements makes sense.
But as far as the council goes, I think they can stay separate. work side by side.

27/7/07 10:21 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Integration. It's like the spectrum of light or the color wheel. The separation gives it the beauty. So the concept has a wide variety of uses.

You can see it ethnically and racially. The ideal is integration, but still the identities are clear. Not homogeneous. It's complicated because once integration is achieved as much as it can be, the mimicry and other things start. Confusion, blurring of distinctions, etc.

How much of a valuable purpose does separation and boundary serve? Perhaps another lesson of Pluto in Capricorn.

27/7/07 10:26 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Appreciation being the operative word"

I read a blog posting today on AstroFutureTrends relating to that.

"The Overview Effect comes from an understanding of the profound, transformative changes that take place in the psyches of [some] astronauts [from watching the Earth, Moon, Sun and starfield] -- experiences of bliss, unity, and oneness. ...Brody discusses a movement to try to replicate the Overview Effect without having to go into outer space. ...Doesn't the study of astrology produce an Overview Effect? I mean, if we are each connected to Pluto, Uranus, Chiron, not to mention our own Moon, what a stunning and mind-boggling overview that is! Perhaps a part of astrology’s power lies in the fact that once we see the overview--the whole solar system is manifesting in each one of our individual lives--it forever transforms our awareness of what it means to be a human on Earth."

27/7/07 10:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

That says it well. I've always had this sensation from the beginning with astrology so I never had the impulse to use it for prediction and what-not. It's connection mostly and the larger dimension it offers me.

This is exactly why I talk about the class distinctions the way I do. I really see the whole system as a unit just like the solar system. So what the government is doing is not really against the functioning of the whole. You have to see the overview though to get this.

27/7/07 10:37 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Integration. It's like the spectrum of light or the color wheel. The separation gives it the beauty. So the concept has a wide variety of uses."

The spectrum and wheel are good metaphors. In art, it's been said that as a principle of design, "harmony is achieved when unity and variety are effectively combined." (Is that a Capricornian statement?)

"Unity" in this context means that in the artwork the parts are related by idea or theme, and "variety" entails the use of two or more different elements of design to create interest.

27/7/07 10:37 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"You have to see the overview though to get this."

It is a little hard to explain to people. Astrology is one means.

27/7/07 10:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I know not. I do know that my life is one with this perspective, but others might need to engage in the pain and conflict for karmic reasons. The pitting of self against a monolith. I see the the mono as neutral, so I have no reason to battle it. I'm only fighting myself. The little squabbles are nothing, really.

27/7/07 10:42 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It is a little hard to explain to people. Astrology is one means.

Help me here. My crusade. To share this observant nonoveremotional viewpoint.

Then the small improvements could be accomplished more easily I think, when you realize the whole is all right.

27/7/07 10:44 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Exactly like ourselves. The whole is functioning and is correct as is, but the tweaking of details is our interest. If we keep in mind this integration it seems that more would be achieved instead of trying to can the whole thing and start over. We do that in the end, anyway.:)

27/7/07 10:46 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

It's like a great work of art in the making. Messy along the way, but that's process. I really think students should be required to learn proficiency in an art or two.

27/7/07 10:57 PM  
Blogger jm said...

So the inner government, if it's a good one, will meet with all the members of the council with the intention of hearing all their contributions, as wise leadership knows is best. But who's in charge? Everyone, I think.

The central meeting room would be..where?.. the heart? Or the brain?

Mercury, of course, would announce the meeting times, and the scribe would take the minutes.

One of them has to sort of direct the proceedings, though.

Can you imagine? If our outer governments could recognize the value of all participants? Or if all would participate.

This hapless world. What shall we do?

27/7/07 11:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And they deleted funding for the arts in schools although now it's being reinstated.
absolutely right. messy along the way. The glorious creative process.

So that's where my government is! A mess in progress!

27/7/07 11:07 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"But who's in charge? Everyone, I think."

Democratic. Or anarchic. Hm.

"The central meeting room would be..where?.. the heart? Or the brain?"

The phrase "where two roads meet" comes to mind. The crossroads, the place traditionally guarded by Hermes/Mercury. :-)

"So that's where my government is! A mess in progress!"

LOL! I like that. I can make a sign, "Mess In Progress". Sorta looks like "Men At Work", but with different words.

27/7/07 11:29 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Well, I think I'd better call it quits. An archetype just popped up and complained, "Stop the proceedings! I've been badly typecast and I'm not taking it anymore!"

27/7/07 11:34 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

To risk, perchance to dream.

"Farewell...and show you not dismay: Fortune's face soon swings another way."

Good night, good council! :-)

27/7/07 11:38 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The meeting is adjourned for the moment.

Good night good archetypes!.:-)

28/7/07 12:27 AM  
Blogger jm said...

manage our resources and assets

That's Pluto in Capricorn. Taurus joining with.

28/7/07 3:17 AM  
Blogger meristem said...

Goodness! I go away for 8 hours and when I come back, well, look at the bounty, the feast!


This is what INTEGRATION means to me:

"harmony is achieved when unity and variety are effectively combined."

I certainly don't want no homoginization, lawd no!
JM I like what you said about the broken fragments catching the light or the distinct colors of the spectrum contributing to the beauty of the whole. Yes! Distinct, faceted, individual....

But each facet informing the forward movement, the inter-communication....cooperation creates integration but without losing individual character. Indeed the differences are of utmost importance because more experience and perspective is represented that way.
So the council integrates when they all agree to meet at the round table.
But yes, I think JM, that it is important not to forget to love each of the members for their quirks and special gifts. They can each have the limelight once in a while and make life more interesting for it. Thanks for this reminder!

And Kadimiros, thank you so much for the info about Sky Woman. I needed that. My relationship with smoking tobacco is also multifaceted and therefore challenging to navigate. It's when the Addict takes over that i don't feel good about smoking....

And thanks also for your memory refreshment about Carolyn's archetype exercises. It's been a while since I worked with her book and had forgotten those details. Glad you jumped right in there! I know your Mystic shows up here quite a lot. Thank goodness....

28/7/07 6:12 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

You're welcome. :-)

"It's when the Addict takes over that i don't feel good about smoking...."

Well, it's nice to get a new or different perspective on something familiar.

I read last night in the on-line encyclopedia that some Native American cultures used it in extraordinarily high dosages to reach altered states of consciousness. At that dosage, it is hallucinogenic. In some groups, only shamans and medicine people used it. In other groups, it was used in ceremonies and on special occasions, even in childhood. They did not generally use it recreationally, so addiction to it was not a big issue in their societies.

Curious to consider our society's relationship to other aspects of the natural world in light of that.

28/7/07 9:41 AM  
Blogger meristem said...

Speaking of Native American wisdom, their cultures use animal medicine in a way that puts me in mind of archetypes as we use them.
Eternal forces being related to in many different ways since humans began.......

The masks, Kadi, made me think of Greek theater. It was almost religion to them, it seemed. And masks were worn by the actors who were representing Archetypes, am I right? Memory is foggy. guess I could look it up!

28/7/07 10:13 AM  
Blogger jm said...

harmony is achieved when unity and variety are effectively combined."

I like this too and it applies to my stage act, which I'm trying to make some decisions about. Keeping a basic theme and how to create the variety within. Still up in the air.

The main part for me with the archetypes is that they have respect for one another. How they engage is up to them, and will always change, I'm sure. On the sidelines sometimes, other times, center stage.

My relationship with smoking tobacco is also multifaceted and therefore challenging to navigate. It's when the Addict takes over that i don't feel good about smoking....

This is very interesting. The smoking issue fascinates me. I still haven't figured out what it's about exactly.

They did not generally use it recreationally, so addiction to it was not a big issue in their societies.

Interesting. I wonder when and where the recreational started. We need to get into some addiction study.

I'm also fascinated with the use of masks. I will ponder this in terms of our archetypes, and what the function of theater is to the health of humanity in socity.

28/7/07 2:01 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Ah, good thought, meristem.

Myss' list pretty much seems to be a list of roles and associated personality types.

But people do work with other kinds of archetypal forms and patterns.

Well, Coyote, Raven and Fox carry the trickster role in different cultures' traditional folklores.

The Thunderbird is too complex to correlate simply. The Thunderbird is a widespread image, yet with localized colorations. Besides bringing thunder, lightning, and storm winds, sometimes it is a divine messenger with wrathful intelligence, a protector or challenger, and sometimes malevolent.

One version of the Thunderbird represents strength amidst the change it brings (its three tail feathers symbolizing past, present, and future). There, it is the strength that sees us through change. Or, it may be the disrupter that shakes us out of our complacency. Then, it begins to have a "Uranian", contrarian flavor. Some groups thought that dreaming of the Thunderbird could mean that one was destined to become a sacred clown, a trickster figure.

I do recall that actors wore masks in Greek theater. The masks probably originated from an older, cultic practice.

In high school, I read a historical novel wherein the protagonist, an actor, dialogues with an antique mask representing the god Apollo. It developed from being his mascot on his journeys to being an expression of his higher conscience, amidst the turmoil of troubled times during which ungrounded idealism meets its limitations in the real world.

"Nikeratos befriends Dion, a moderate politician, who entrusts him with conveying sensitive documents between Athens and the powerful but unstable city-state of Syracuse. Dion is trying to bring stability and democracy to the transitional government there, but the young heir to the tyrant of the city, Dionysius the Younger, instead attempts ineptly to apply Plato’s theories of an ideal republic, with disastrous results."

28/7/07 2:25 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The main part for me with the archetypes is that they have respect for one another. How they engage is up to them, and will always change, I'm sure. On the sidelines sometimes, other times, center stage."

A little creative conflict and creative tension add dramatic interest. :-)

"Interesting. I wonder when and where the recreational started. We need to get into some addiction study."

I just read that steam-cured chewing tobacco is less carcinogenic, but still has nicotine that adversely affects the cardiovascular system and pancreas. Some claim that a cigarette butt has enough nicotine to kill a small child if ingested. Nicotine is a natural insecticide. There is also some natural radioactive content in tobacco, which may contribute to carcinogenicity.

28/7/07 4:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There is a vast number of substances in tobacco, some of them beneficial. The primary pleasure effect is on the dopamine receptors I believe.

Everything we take into our bodies is somewhat carcinogenic I've been led to believe. This is a big area of interest for me. The double side of poison. It appears that we need poison in small amounts, and it is most obvious in drugs, alcohol, and tobacco, which humans have always used for reasons. This is something I'm going to study.

They affect the pleasure centers of the brain and denial of this chemical action can have harmful effects in itself. I'm wondering if this pleasure effect is directly associated with the carcinogenic characteristics.

28/7/07 8:06 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Masks and costumes are used in everyday life to some extent; in our clothes, make-up, and false facial expressions we learn from birth on. I think they offer freedom of expression every day and an outlet for the archetypes. We do it more than we realize. We have to.

In Greek drama it was focused and magnified to provide a group catharsis, maybe dramatizing more than they could in ordinary day to day life. But the drama happens all the time on some level. The illusion is required for us to function. The mask provides release.

The ASC is considered the mask in astrology and most people don't identify with it. I've mentioned before how I think this is one of the problems in personality integration and expression. They're supposed to use it well, like any good thespian.

28/7/07 8:13 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

The double side of poison. It appears that we need poison in small amounts

or that substances are or are not poisonous relative to their dosage, like mercury was used to 'cure' syphillis, chemotherapy for cancer (not fully behind that one myself), vaccines, and many homeopathic remedies....

28/7/07 9:32 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

I'm also fascinated with the use of masks. I will ponder this in terms of our archetypes, and what the function of theater is to the health of humanity in society.

It's like with shamanic healing rituals: take out the elements, isolate and exaggerate them so we can see them clearly and get their messages.
Masks can be grotesque and graphic and give a gut level symbolic, visceral transmission, no explanation needed. Meaning distilled and conveyed simply and profoundly. Appealing to our pre-verbal levels of comprehension.

28/7/07 9:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yes, the dosage. Probably everything is both poison and remedy. We learn the ratios. I love this area of knowledge.

take out the elements, isolate and exaggerate them so we can see them clearly and get their messages.

This applies to a lot of things. Our politcal situation of late, for example. Intense pain. Great thought.

28/7/07 10:32 PM  
Blogger jm said...

chemotherapy for cancer (not fully behind that one myself)

Really, meristem? can you speak? I'm very very interested.

28/7/07 10:34 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Lots of ways to explore these ideas. The first thought that came to me is, "Children play to learn and grow. Part of play is play-acting." What does that mean? Um. Let me "Google" some of those words.

Okay, recently in the UK, the shadow education secretary decried the loss of recreational spaces; he linked it to growing incidence of inability to concentrate and "nature deficit disorders". He said that children develop conceptual frameworks through three-dimensional experience, for which sedentary activities can't fully substitute. He said, "It is very hard to make sense of geometry if you haven't thrown a ball around or make sense of volume if you haven't messed about with water and sand or do arithmetic if you haven't collected things and arranged them."

According to the article, "The area in which children were allowed to range freely by their parents was a ninth of what it was a generation ago, he said. He also referred to 'most worrying' research which showed children could not grasp basic maths. 'The research tracked the grasp of basic mathematical concepts. For example, you pour water from a tall thin glass into a broad low glass and ask the children if it is the same volume of water. The evidence is that in the past 10 or 15 years or so the proportion of children who understand at the age of seven that it is the same volume of water has gone down significantly. The explanation could well lie in the increasingly flat world that they inhabit."

We can apply the idea of multidimensionality to the psyche as it learns and develops itself.

Children learn through natural identifications. They can play-act with confidence, all the while secure in knowing that they are themselves in playful expression of themselves regardless of their games of transformation. Those adults who are taught to be anxious about their place and their innermost energies are afraid to be as free as the child. They toe the lines of borrowed roles and socially approved identities. They automatically censor their expressiveness and their awareness. They unknowingly deny themselves opportunities to live a more fully dimensioned life.

Maybe we can say that the the psyche extending itself in joyful, playful activity strengthens and stretches the child's will and confidence. He learns to choose from among his impulses and their many possibilities. He is not limited to only one program, and he begins to understand the programs of others and how they dynamically interrelate.

29/7/07 9:47 AM  
Blogger meristem said...

I don't think you can destroy hate with hate. And that's what chemotherapy feels like to me. (not personally, but symbolically or viscerally)

29/7/07 9:55 AM  
Blogger meristem said...

Kadimiros, I love that info about play. It makes brilliant sense and isn't something we had to consider before now. We older generations just took the 3-D world for granted.
And play is essential for health, of course.

29/7/07 9:58 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

29/7/07 10:50 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Glad you liked it. :-)

It occurs to me that an interesting thing about play-acting is that it isn't just imagined action. It's acting. Acting means to act, be an actor, engage in action. Although it's imaginative exercise, the inner psychic motion and the creative impulses naturally express through the body as movement in physical space. It works the other way, too, as movement can trigger feeling and emotion. The child is developing a full range of feeling and behavioral options.

So acting/action is a way in which imagination becomes real. And acting is a really good way to get a conscious relationship to internal energies which before felt elusive.

I suppose that professional actors are the ones who excel at doing this for society, and who carry a higher purpose of assisting in society's psychological development.

29/7/07 10:52 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

It's also interesting to think about how the Leo, Sun and 5th House complex of symnbols has been associated variously with the will and confidence (Leo's key phrase is supposed to be "I will"), self-esteem, children, creativity, gambling and good fortune, drama, and the professional stage or screen actor.

29/7/07 11:42 AM  
Blogger meristem said...

yes! yes! yes!
Role-playing being one way in which adults can 'practice' new behaviors in order to embody them and make them more natural when real-life situations call for them.
Athletes, musicians, dancers all repeat actions over end over to imprint them on their nervous systems in order to reach grace, fluidity and mastery.
So it makes perfect sense that that is what children are doing, of course!
And that 5th house combo makes sense when you have followed this idea thread and created this equation of meaning.

I like the way your brain works :)

29/7/07 1:06 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Omg, now I know how you feel, meristem, when you come back to the buffet table! A lot to read here.

29/7/07 1:50 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

It was only three new posts here. :-)

I like this card with the happy little kid riding the white horse and carrying a big red flag. Seems to be a good handle on this configuration of thoughts.

The Sun

It's not the only way to constellate ideas about archetypes, but I happened to hit upon this one for some reason. Maybe I would come up with something a little different at another time, see, if I'm influenced by new things.

29/7/07 6:54 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm back with the brakes on so I can enjoy this substance. Comments forthcoming:-)

29/7/07 7:06 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I don't think you can destroy hate with hate. And that's what chemotherapy feels like to me.

This is great meristem. I'm studying cancer metaphysically and I agree with you. Hate is connected with the development of cancer, so this particularly makes sense to me.

It's complex, the healing approach. Ideally I want gentle treatments, but I still don't know what people's needs are. Some need extreme pain, I suppose, but people one day will have to learn to stop punishing themselves. The juxtaposition of tenderness with disease and pain is almost impossible in the way we attack sickness, but I think it's the only chance for real deep healing. Break the patterns.
Chemotherapy is not working well. I think it's causing more cancers in their bodies.

I love this topic.

29/7/07 7:13 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I suppose that professional actors are the ones who excel at doing this for society, and who carry a higher purpose of assisting in society's psychological development.

Yes yes yes. Thespian comes from Theos (god), I believe. Actors are the translators and speakers of these messages.

29/7/07 7:16 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I like the way your brain works :)

Kad's brain is working??

Athletes, musicians, dancers all repeat actions over end over to imprint them on their nervous systems in order to reach grace, fluidity and mastery.

Doesn't take long. The consciousness is so plastic.

I would like to pursue this Sun discussion further.

29/7/07 7:21 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

One of the most profound experiences of my life concerning body memory (practice and play) is from my dance days. I was in the middle of a performance, dancing with a partner. Toward the end of our piece my brain clicked in, attempting to THINK about my next steps which caused my mind to go completely blank, shut down. I became two parts then: the blank mind panicking that I would lose my place and stand dumbfounded on the stage, and my body which didn't miss a beat, finishing the pas de deux perfectly --- I didn't realize what had happened until I found myself offstage in the wings. I had to shake my head in wonder to process what had happened. It was extraordinary!
THAT is when I learned that the body has an intelligence that doesn't need an active brain, as far as voluntary movement is concerned.
Later, in massage therapy school I was fascinated to learn that there is a physiological component to behavior and thought pattern: nerve pathways are activated or laid down for any voluntary activity. These pathways become more myelinated (strengthened and 'lubricated' if you will) the more they are used, which means they become reinforced and easier to use, shooting impulses down them with greater ease and speed. It was a eureka moment for me because that explained why habits, whether behavioral or mental, are so hard to break. The path of least resistance in the physical map of our bodies. This has a function for reinforcing learning, but it can make our lives more difficult as well in the form of negative thought habits, for example. It made me think of my smoking habit at the time :) Always looking for the tools to help me understand my whys and wherefores!

29/7/07 7:24 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

I think we need more metaphysical understanding for real healing.
But then, this journey, and the experience of pain and illness is a necessary part of that process. Of awakening to the metaphysical...

Carolyn Myss' work and perspective is the first place that the metaphysical or symbolic level of seeing really captured my attention. She explains well.
JM, your abilities in this area are what keep me coming back and excite me still. I get it. It makes sense and is as real as the wind or rain. It feels familiar and good, true.....

I'm curious to know Kadimiros, what is your work or career in the world? If I may be so bold....

29/7/07 7:32 PM  
Blogger jm said...

THAT is when I learned that the body has an intelligence that doesn't need an active brain, as far as voluntary movement is concerned.

This interests me. Like a cellular memory once something has been learned. There probably are efficiencey reasons for the body to do this to free the brain up for new learning. The path to unlearning these habits is the great one. Let me know what you come up with.

29/7/07 8:05 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I would like to pursue this Sun discussion further."

Well, this is a good time for you to look at it, with the Sun currently in Leo. The Sun is in you. The memory of it is also a perception of its presence. You can probably bring it more into the forefront, just by paying it more quality attention. And then, maybe that means that Saturn in Leo, the teacher, will have done her job right, for you. Again, she'll step aside for you, as you become her.

With Pluto, and the fire sign connection, I think of the phoenix, a fiery animal of Scorpio, although Scorpio itself is thought to be Water. Fire itself is archetypally a symbol of transformation. It's also the Sun rising anew over the sea. The anticipation of potential pain gives us all pause, perhaps, and sometimes we might feel flattened by overwhelming events, but we always find that we miraculously survive the discomfort, renewed by unconscious forces.

So you really did have everything already. It's just that it takes a little time for you to unfold. You've built an incredibly rich store of inner resources. A lot of what happens in life is an outgrowth of who we think we are and what we expect to be possible for us.

29/7/07 9:09 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I'm curious to know Kadimiros, what is your work or career in the world? If I may be so bold.... "

Well, currently I freelance as a builder of custom database, and also Web broadcast, applications, but that can change without notice. :-) I have a fine arts degree. The specific things I do depend somewhat on the particular client's needs. Some clients are financial-oriented, others are meeting planners or producers in the event industry. But there's graphic design, interface useability, as well as application program logic and data structuring. Keeps both brain hemispheres humming along together. :-)

29/7/07 9:12 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

Thank you!
You enjoy systems and are able to put that to use in your work....excellent

30/7/07 6:10 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Well, I like the malleability of the work, and there's a certain challenge to synthesizing everything, merging form and function, reinterpreting client objectives. Because I'm skilled in several fields, I'm able to translate between the sales, marketing, and the artistic and technical production folks.

Besides the communicating, it takes a lot of visualization to craft things that work well. There's a lot of constant switching between the microscopic level and the macroscopic level, which seems difficult for many people. It comes easily enough to me, hours are often flexible except when dealing with live broadcasting, and it pays the rent.

I mentally flirt with the idea of becoming a partner in a company that I help build, it would be consciously infused with spiritual principles, but at this point in my life I'm not one to plan too far ahead.

30/7/07 10:58 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

It sounds like it suits you.
I like the idea of a high-tech company infused with spiritual principles....
And way to incite curiosity with that last comment about not wanting to plan too far ahead at this point in your life...

1/8/07 6:44 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Planning, who does that? Don't most people just sort of drift from one thing to another? :-)

Some people have a pretty firm vision, and they proceed fairly directly to it, step by step. Other people are more open to novelty in their process.

Me, I'm just waiting for the world to catch up to my vision, ha ha! It seems like it's almost ready. :-)

1/8/07 7:01 PM  

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