Tuesday, September 05, 2006

Psyche......Continued

Psyche is a king's daughter so beautiful that people abandon the worship of Venus in favor of her. This infuriates Venus, who instructs her son, Cupid(Eros) to punish Psyche by making her fall in love with the ugliest creature in the world. 
When Cupid sees her, however, he falls in love with her himself. He arranges for an oracle to instruct her father to stand her on a mountain peak in wedding clothes, where she will be carried off by a spirit. In much sorrow the king obeys, but Psyche is wafted off to a palace in a secret valley, where she is joined in bed at night by an invisible Cupid.

He promises her that they will be happy forever as long as she doesn't try to see him or discover who he is. But one night, at the prodding of her jealous sisters, she lights a candle to look at him, her hands shaking so much that a drop of candle wax falls and wakes him. He vanishes.

Psyche is desolate and looks throughout the world for her lost lover, but Ceres will not help her because she has offended Venus. Eventually she comes to Venus's palace where she is put to work on impossible tasks, such as sorting grain in a roomful of ants.
Finally Venus tells her to bring a flask of water of youth from the queen of the underworld. Knowing she must die, Psyche climbs a tower to throw herself off, but the tower speaks to her and tells her how to achieve her quest, warning her on no account to open the flask. But longing overcomes her on the way, and she falls into a deathlike trance.

Cupid is miserable and tells Jupiter, begging him to be allowed to make her his wife. Jupiter agrees, and Cupid wakes Psyche with the tip of his arrow. She is reconciled with Venus and all the gods attend the wedding, Jupiter himself giving her the nectar of immortality.


Psyche means soul, and the journey of the goddess Psyche is seen as an allegory for the journey of the human soul through life. It's believed to be a part of the mind it seems in modern times.
This fascinates me. I wonder why the soul of man is associated with a woman of such stunning and superior beauty. The soul has such a deep and distant sense about it. A greatness. I understand the longing, the journey through loneliness, and the descent into hellish experiences to achieve the desired goal. But what exactly is this soul/psyche? And in a group of beings that frequently come to a bad end, why does this entity meet with such a fortunate destiny? I can't help but wonder why she is in everyone's good graces. What this is saying about man's soul.
I have yet to completely understand the relationship between the psyche and the soul.
As this conversation has gone on, I have learned more and more. I find myself wanting to pursue this line of discussion further, possibly ad infinitum.
Painting by Spencer Stanhope.

130 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting stuff. Erich Neumann wrote a book on the myth of Psyche from a Jungian perspective. You might like it. Also, I bought a book a few months ago called Cosmos and Psyche, about the de-souling of the universe, and re-souling it through astrology. Intriguing.

Your soul journey reminds me of mine. May the earth continue to dream its dream through you.

30/8/06 10:49 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Beautiful comment. Thank you so much.
I think Cosmos and Psyche is just what I'm looking for.

30/8/06 11:37 AM  
Blogger jm said...

In the last few days I've sensed an odd atmosphere around me and it could be the Saturn/Neptune opposition which is exact now.

The Katrina celebration has an unreal quality to it as the decay of our actions still reverberates, and the stench lingers as the lights and camera roll on the impossible fake leader.
The truth seems to be in the vicinity. Does anyone believe that New Orleans is growing and will be thriving? Does anyone believe in our leadership deep down?

I've always thought the soul carried our redemption within. I wonder if the Saturn/Neptune is connected. The invisibility of Eros, the search, and the final reconciliation.

30/8/06 3:42 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Psyche is a king's daughter so beautiful that people abandon the worship of Venus in favor of her.

Blinded by beauty, the people lose sight of love, and fall into the grasp of her shadow, jealousy.

This infuriates Venus, who instructs her son, Cupid (Eros) to punish Psyche by making her fall in love with the ugliest creature in the world.

Thus is set forth a lesson that love is more powerful than beauty.

Her son, being an aspect of love, takes on this role himself. Psyche does not trust in love so the lesson, though softened, can not be bypassed entirely. He vanishes from Psyche's bed.

But perhaps she is also impelled to come to know love completely, inasmuch as it is possible. And this she cannot do, without also knowing the pain of separation and the journey of earthly life seeking the lost ideal. She must struggle against despair, endure, strive to be constant, and listen to the voices of the earth. In the end, she can not compel love; but by its own nature it may return. Her curiosity, which seems her undoing more than once, is a part of her nature, and perhaps she is loved all the more for it.

Her daughter is named Pleasure.

30/8/06 5:10 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Then the soul is where the capacity to love lies.

love is more powerful than beauty.

It's interesting that Psyche's beauty remains intact. So love must ultimately be equated with beauty in some realm.

she can not compel love; but by its own nature it may return. Her curiosity, which seems her undoing more than once, is a part of her nature, and perhaps she is loved all the more for it.

This is a beautiful thought in itself. That curiosity has that much charm.

Is she innocent?
I think the lesson of allowing love its flight and freedom, it's autonomy, is paramount. It's ultimately the love of self. And we know that comes and goes.

I didn't know this, Kad, and it is stunning information. That her daughter is Pleasure
So interesting that love and pleasure lead to a good end.

More research ahead of me.

30/8/06 5:25 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This also makes me rethink Venus as the goddess of love. She lacks purity, and maybe is more about earthly sensuality and selfish gratification. Her insecurity about her own attractiveness is telling.

30/8/06 5:34 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"And in a group of beings that frequently come to a bad end, why does this entity meet with such a fortunate destiny?"

Maybe because "Love does not need a reason why"? Heheh. Just kidding.

30/8/06 6:46 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

jm~And in a group of beings that frequently come to a bad end, why does this entity meet with such a fortunate destiny?

Kadmiros~ Maybe because "Love does not need a reason why"? Heheh. Just kidding.

Or perhaps when you strip all else away only Love remains?

30/8/06 7:17 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Here's another book you may be interested in, Psyche and Substance Essays on Homeopathy in the Light of Jungian Psychology by Edward C Whitmont.(a student of Jung)He also draws upon Paracelsus, Goethe, Planck and others to look into the interplay between myth and healing. "..how psyche and soma, man and earth, function as different aspects of one integrated field."

I've always thought that Psyche was not the soul but the gate to it, the lesson before the door opens....

30/8/06 7:31 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"So love must ultimately be equated with beauty in some realm."

In the story, the representatives of love and beauty appear as eternal partners, hand in hand, in the form of Cupid and Psyche. In other words, where you find one, you will often find a hint of the other.

The story suggests that it is possible to love a lowly, mean, unworthy creature, and that this would somehow be a punishment. (But to whom?) Psyche is spared this fate except in the form of her fear stoked by her jealous sisters. Or perhaps she is not spared, and her fear makes her perceive Cupid as a monster more horrible than she would otherwise have encountered. She is challenged to love Cupid for how he relates to her, and not for his looks or status as a god.

As soul, Psyche becomes more than surface beauty. Psyche in ancient Greek also means "butterfly", the lowly, plodding, wormlike creature which enters its tomblike cocoon, sleeps as if dead through a season of transformation, to finally emerge as a beautiful winged creature. Having grown wings, she can drink of divine nectar, and eternity.

"This also makes me rethink Venus as the goddess of love. She lacks purity, and maybe is more about earthly sensuality and selfish gratification. Her insecurity about her own attractiveness is telling."

My impression is that the gods were not required to be consistent. (Like the word "love". What do we mean by it?) Although, the original story does not say that Venus was jealous of Psyche's beauty so much as that she was offended that the people abandoned the altars of Venus and left her temples untended. It seems to be a give proper honor and respect kind of thing. I suppose that we could read this to mean that to pursue beauty without faithfulness in love leads to all kinds of trouble and regret.

30/8/06 7:47 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Or perhaps when you strip all else away only Love remains?"

Good! I like that. It is certainly an allegory of the soul's purification.

30/8/06 7:51 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

"Or perhaps when you strip all else away only Love remains?"

Good! I like that. It is certainly an allegory of the soul's purification.

Soul's purification? or is it the purification of matter attatched to it.

30/8/06 7:59 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Soul's purification? or is it the purification of matter attatched to it."

Hmm, I guess I'd leave that up to the reader! Personally, I like to think of clarity of perception, unclouded by fear, etc., although that might not have been what the author intended to emphasize. I probably don't fully believe in a spirit/matter dichotomy, or in impurity implying value judgment, I suppose, so it would be difficult for me to address the concept of purification too closely.

30/8/06 8:16 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

i am trying to get a sense of Psyche as "soul", instead of "breath", just went and read around and understand now the "soul" that is refered to here is a lower influenced aspect of mind...also found this which carries us back to Pluto's realm.
The Greek verb from which psyche is derived also means to chill, make cold; and this has an application to the psyche as the lower part of the human soul and therefore closely connected with the kama-rupa and astral light after death.

30/8/06 8:35 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I probably don't fully believe in a spirit/matter dichotomy, or in impurity implying value judgment, I suppose, so it would be difficult for me to address the concept of purification too closely.

That's a very interesting thought about the value judgement of impurity.
Very interesting. if you separate spirit and matter as is so often done, then actually spirit would be an impurity to matter.

This is a lot of food for thought. Going to ponder impurity.

I also have to think about the chill factor while I try to do a Virgo thing right now and take out my garbage, speaking of impurity.

30/8/06 9:41 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Such a good point Kad. Purity I think is something that mixes with the character of another thing and dilutes it. The thought that this is a negative comes from our perception..unclean, impure...maybe because of religious connotation. In fact, an impurity could add to its value, I would think.

Have we been led down the garden path thinking that we and our souls need purification? Is being human and of the material realm impure in and of itself?

30/8/06 9:53 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The Greek verb from which psyche is derived also means to chill, make cold; and this has an application to the psyche as the lower part of the human soul and therefore closely connected with the kama-rupa and astral light after death.

This takes us back to comprehension of the soul and verifies its vastness.
The cold factor is interesting.

Our culture connects the soul to the heart, a place of warmth...and feeling. But the cool factor descibes its distance and maybe its mental character. The association with light I hadn't thought about.

Great beauty is often thought of as cool and statuesqe. Detached. So is the love connected to the soul different entirely from the personal love we usually think of? I think yes.

30/8/06 10:11 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I also have to think about the chill factor while I try to do a Virgo thing right now and take out my garbage, speaking of impurity."

Somehow makes me think of entropy, orderly systems from chaos, and thermodynamics. Hmm, I've never thought of Virgo quite like that before.

31/8/06 10:23 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Entropy: perfect word!

A mathematical expression of the degree in which the energy of a thermodynamic system is so distributed as to be unavailable for work(Virgo).

The increasing tendency of the a system, including the universe toward increasing disorder(Pisces).


My sources give these definitions which would actually emphasize the chaos thus putting entropy on the Pisces side of the axis.

We are so deep into this now with the Virgo Sun, Virgo/Pisces lunation, and the Saurn/Neptune opposition trying to organize the choas. And Uranus wildly stirring the chaos.

This is interesting. So is the natural state one of chaos, and effort is required to bring order?
Virgo is exactly this. The analysis of the whole, reorganization and a new synthesis, hopefully without all the chaos. A working order.
Possible?

Quite a dilemma for you, Kadimiros, with Pisces rising and Pluto/Uranus demanding order in the 6th house(Virgo) with the North Node. Tseka too with her Pisces/Virgo nodes and Moon in Virgo.

But still, is chaos the natural state? So is useful Virgo ultimately useless? It's a toughie for you two. The order keeps slipping away.

31/8/06 11:19 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This is interesting. So is the natural state one of chaos, and effort is required to bring order?"

Well, I'm no expert, but could you say from a chaos mathlike point of view that order and chaos are opposite poles, and between the (perhaps abstractions) of absolute order and absolute chaos, real life happens? The extremes would be inimical to life. I think that the process philosophical theologians say that God (as they conceive) has two aspects -- something to do with "order" and "novelty".

"Virgo is exactly this. The analysis of the whole, reorganization and a new synthesis, hopefully without all the chaos. A working order. Possible?"

A living organism, creating order by taking in energy and pushing disorder outside of itself. Setting and monitoring the boundaries of the self, to maintain the self.

I'm momentarily amused by the thought that Virgo is a winged creature like Pysche. Although, Pysche was pregnant while she sought her lost husband.

"Quite a dilemma for you, Kadimiros, with Pisces rising and Pluto/Uranus demanding order in the 6th house(Virgo) with the North Node."

I just hide my shame and tell people that there is "method within my madness." I produce highly orderly works to make a living, but I leave a lot of surrounding disorder in the process.

31/8/06 11:45 AM  
Blogger jm said...

NO!!!!!! C'mon!!!!!!
You are a well of odd information.

Psyche pregnant when looking? With Pleasure?! Now that adds a whole new curve. I wonder at what stage the birth occurred.

I would imagine the order and chaos are 50/50. But I know that infants as soon as they are able, start to use their hands to reorganize everything they touch in a system with no apparent order to the outsider. I've always been intrigued by this. As they put a block somewhere that makes complete sense to them.
I guess the Virgo is the coordinatin required to function in the body. maybe they are practicing this.

but I leave a lot of surrounding disorder in the process.

How does the disorder manifest?

The byproduct of creativity is disorder, I believe. The pleasure seems to be in going from one to the other.

31/8/06 12:02 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Quite a dilemma for you, Kadimiros, with Pisces rising and Pluto/Uranus demanding order in the 6th house(Virgo) with the North Node."

"I just hide my shame and tell people that there is 'method within my madness.' I produce highly orderly works to make a living, but I leave a lot of surrounding disorder in the process."


One time, I was making a poster about a sale on art brushes. I cut neat sans-serif letters out of stiff paper, and painted them black. I meant to position and reposition the letters on a larger sheet until I found a pleasing composition. It was frustrating.

Then, I saw the tracing paper I had placed to protect the table from paint. And I realized that the brushed silhouettes were much more interesting and lively than anything I could ever find by moving letters around. The garbage, the byproduct, was much better than the original direction I had in mind. In the end, I contrastingly placed some of the letters over some of the tracing paper, and mounted the whole thing on a larger sheet, a composition within a composition.

"Psyche pregnant when looking? With Pleasure?!"

Oh, well, I think that's what I remember. Just look up a translation of the original text. It was a short story told by a character within a 2nd century Roman novel, I believe, so a story within a story.

How does the disorder manifest?

Messy work area, dishes undone, and clothes unhung, and irregular sleeping/eating hours come to mind. My sister watched me paint, once, and she commented that she was always cleaning up throughout her painting process, whereas I made a huge mess and only cleaned up after the painting was done.

31/8/06 12:17 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"In fact, an impurity could add to its value, I would think."

True! Nowadays, we likely have a better appreciation of materials and emergent properties.

"Have we been led down the garden path thinking that we and our souls need purification? Is being human and of the material realm impure in and of itself?"

Is the everchanging sky always a perfect sky in some sense? Is the concept of perfection, as normally understood, flawed?

Maybe it's kind of relative to goals, and to the scale at which one examines.

I've heard that in India the Vendantist school of thought tends to regard reaching enlightenment as being like a leap of realization that recognizes the truth, whereas the Tantric school has practices to encourage progressive development through time. Do practices help, or will they hinder realization by implying separateness from a goal? Is it true that "what's real is unchanging", or is it that everything is in process? So I gather that is a basic philosophical split in viewpoint and approach, even among ancient traditions.

I sidestep by asking: In the daily living that unfolds in linear time out of Bohm's implicate order or what-have-you, we have to do something, so why not spiritual practices, too, if we happen to like them? I could regard a spiritual practice as an adornment for the gods, so to speak, part of the artful playfulness of consciousness. I asked a highly spiritual person once about this, and she said that while she leaned toward "what's real is unchanging", she still used spiritual practices such as meditation and chanting.

I remember reading physicist Bohm explaining that, before conscious thinking, we make a kind of basic decision in consciousness about how to perceive: Is reality fundamentally unified, or is it divided? Are things separate? Or I could similarly say, Do I respond more from love, or react from fear -- or something, perhaps appropriately situational, between? And then our repeated choosings shape the kinds of questions we are able to ask and the actions we take, shape our world according to our belief.

I feel that the underlying reality is unity. If I see with an artistic eye the whole composition that results from intimate involvement with process, I like this excerpt from Mellen-Thomas Benedict's remarkable story about his encounter with death:

Then, after a couple of minutes, I asked for more clarification. I really wanted to know what the universe is about, and I was ready to go at that time. I said "I am ready, take me." Then the Light turned into the most beautiful thing that I have ever seen: a mandala of human souls on this planet. Now I came to this with my negative view of what was happening on the planet. So as I asked the Light to keep clarifying for me, I saw in this magnificent mandala how beautiful we all are in our essence, our core. We are the most beautiful creations. The human soul, the human matrix that we all make together is absolutely fantastic, elegant, exotic, everything. I just cannot say enough about how it changed my opinion of human beings in that instant. I said, "Oh, God, I did not know how beautiful we are." At any level, high or low, in whatever shape you are in, you are the most beautiful creation, you are.

So the soul of humanity, its psyche, is movingly beautiful, when seen as a whole. So the story goes.

31/8/06 12:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The garbage, the byproduct, was much better than the original direction I had in mind. In the end, I contrastingly placed some of the letters over some of the tracing paper, and mounted the whole thing on a larger sheet, a composition within a composition.

This is ideal. The synthesis of chaos and order. Why wait?
Beautiful desciption and so good to be able to see the value of the garbage!
I save everything because I see the creative value in it all objects. And the most apparently useless thing will hit me one day and become a new idea for a project.

Messy work area, dishes undone, and clothes unhung

You are describing my house. Are you sure you haven't seen it?

I am hopless. I have Neptune in the 6th Virgo house and I have never cleaned and put things away. Futile in my book. It's my own mess and I'm perfectly OK with it. I used to clean when my parents came to visit but they're no longer on the earth plane, so my house remains in chaos continuously. 1000 projects going at once. Books and paper in piles everywhere....well, you know.

My sister watched me paint, once, and she commented that she was always cleaning up throughout her painting process, whereas I made a huge mess and only cleaned up after the painting was done.

I can't imagine in a million years cleaning while painting. Painting interruptus. Must be a big difference in your work.

31/8/06 12:45 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Do practices help, or will they hinder realization by implying separateness from a goal?

Great question. I lean toward minimal practice overall though there are times when it fits. When a difficult skill is desired and repetition is needed.
But here we have the Virgo/Pisces thing again. Separateness from the goal. The whole. So we break it down to be less overwhelmed and to try to have manipulative control. Difficult to find the optimal amount of practical Virgo mechanics.

we have to do something

This I think is the essence of our lives. We do what we do becuase it's something to do. War or embroidery. You name it.

And then our repeated choosings shape the kinds of questions we are able to ask and the actions we take, shape our world according to our belief.

Yup.

The human soul, the human matrix that we all make together is absolutely fantastic, elegant, exotic, everything. I just cannot say enough about how it changed my opinion of human beings in that instant.

This is my view entirely, and I'm glad I don't need near death to point it out. I am amazed that others around me aren't in awe of this elegant universe and in love in some way with themselves.

Psyche.

So the soul of humanity, its psyche, is movingly beautiful, when seen as a whole. So the story goes.

There we have it.

31/8/06 1:01 PM  
Blogger Neith said...

This is my view entirely, and I'm glad I don't need near death to point it out. I am amazed that others around me aren't in awe of this elegant universe and in love in some way with themselves.

Perhaps more are and are simply unable to recognize it! This is a concept that is close to my heart too . . . wonderful discourse!

31/8/06 1:13 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Neith!!!

Close to your heart is a good place.
I think it's time for more people to come to the recognition. All the outer planets and the Uranus/Neptune are begging people to turn away from the ugliness and look at some visions. All the horror has made this more desirable. I've never felt my longing for beauty any stronger than it is now. And that includes seeing it in people.

31/8/06 1:33 PM  
Blogger Neith said...

All the horror has made this more desirable. I've never felt my longing for beauty any stronger than it is now. And that includes seeing it in people.

Paradox abounds now. The longing for beauty and the ability to recognize it in it's many forms is so important. Perhaps if we focus on the beauty to be found in people it will help them manifest it . . . perhaps...

I washed some raw fleece this morning . . . pretty nasty stuff as it comes off the sheep's back. Once it's clean, it is so soft & lovely . . . and this was from a sheep w/brownish wool, so all the subtle variations in shades emerge after washing . . . :-)

31/8/06 1:41 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Perhaps if we focus on the beauty to be found in people it will help them manifest it.

One of the truest and most important things that's been said lately. The sheep must be inspiring you, neith.

How do you wash the stuff?

31/8/06 1:58 PM  
Blogger Neith said...

How do you wash the stuff?

This is such a beautiful dialogue I answered this question over on my blog . . . under the post "Balancing Act" . . . :-)

31/8/06 7:21 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

The human soul, the human matrix that we all make together is absolutely fantastic, elegant, exotic, everything.

ja, and we (humans) are such a tiny fraction of this great beauty. The soul of each of us an undying precious, irreplacable note in the vast. breath / no-breath
Seen / Unseen

I have been comtemplating Dark Matter some the past few years, what is it ninety some percent of the sosmos. Thinking of David Bohm's particle physics that when a particlur particle passes through a particular field the reaction with the field is always the same. The Dark Matter we know exists but we cannot see it, define it. The light is such a small part only 3%?(which mirrros the coding part of our DNA) It stikes me that the light is the "creative" moving through the vast dark sea of potential.

i see the darkness therefore i know it is not me

31/8/06 7:59 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Kadimiros, is there a place where i may see your work?

31/8/06 8:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The Dark Matter we know exists but we cannot see it, define it. The light is such a small part only 3%?(which mirrros the coding part of our DNA) It stikes me that the light is the "creative" moving through the vast dark sea of potential.

Beautiful, tseka. I also have been thinking about Dark Matter. It leaves no trace of itself, and things pass right through it, so I understand.

So I am perplexed at the negative connotation of "dark". I don't see it, so to speak. I think darkness is magnificent, and I agree with you that it is a "sea of potential".
I would like to do more on this subject.

31/8/06 9:36 PM  
Blogger jm said...

So I guess this is our challenge. To elevate ourselves as we go, maybe trying to match our material reality with our spirit which is already there, as Kad suggests.

The undertow of base ugly behavior isn't dark to me. It has light and horrible color. Garishness, unbearable disharmony, screams, and all those things. Not dark at all. Dark is like velvet to me.

31/8/06 9:47 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This is ideal. The synthesis of chaos and order. Why wait?
Beautiful desciption and so good to be able to see the value of the garbage!"


In a flash of perception, following frustration, the project moved from being mired in mundanity to fine art. Maybe the art of living can be like this. If frustration, then check out the garbage!

"I can't imagine in a million years cleaning while painting. Painting interruptus. Must be a big difference in your work."

Heh. Well, there is probably more struggle and tension evident in mine. I have more varied and energetic strokes. She has a more sophisticated sense of the organic, though. We have a love for things that are both strange and beautiful.

"I lean toward minimal practice overall though there are times when it fits. When a difficult skill is desired and repetition is needed."

What we bring to our doing makes most of the difference between levels of excellence. I've always observed that quality of attention is crucial. Today researchers call it "effortful practice". Duration of practice means little more than maintenance.

One writer may scrawl for all of his life, whereas another may study calligraphy for weeks, and from this training come away with an expressive hand that fairly leaps with spontaneity and delight. One golfer may learn enough to enjoy golf weekends spent with his buddies and cease to learn more, but another golf lover will be lashed with enough divine discontent to someday win at tournaments.

If I live life well, fully and vividly, what shall I be? A question I must remember and take to heart.

1/9/06 12:58 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"is there a place where i may see your work?"

Some years ago, I was trying to explain some principles to an old friend studying drawing in another part of the country. I decided it was more effective to give examples, so I made computer scans of an old sketchbook from my college days. They are mostly monochromatic sketches and drawings of people: Life Drawings

I don't do fine art as a profession, so there is little else that is public. An artist/writer took some of my color work and that of other artists to incorporate in one of the books she was writing, but that particular book is an unfinished project.

I have sketchbooks with small paintings of dreams and visions.

1/9/06 2:16 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Heavens, Kadimiros.

A revelation on a quiet Fri afternoon.

These are beautiful, graceful, and skilled.
I particularly resonated with Young Women in Quick Poses, Sitting Man, and Apollo. The Sitting man captures the feeling of sitting as he gives in to the chair, which I would think is difficult to achieve. Very well done. To me, this is where the skill becomes exceptional. Translating human sensation to a two dimensional surface with one implement. Amazing.
Apollo is gorgeous. Completely.
And Mad Artist. Great.

Did you go to art school?
I also am curious as to whether or not you want to make a career in the marketplace with your fine art talent? Would you be satisfied with a limited audience, not for profit?

What is it about artists I love so much? Both their work and their personas.

1/9/06 4:12 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Maybe the art of living can be like this. If frustration, then check out the garbage!

Our new dictum! Perhaps we should put a 'pamphlet for living' together.

I thought about the cleaning while painting and came to the conclusion that maybe this helps her organize and clarify the vision she's trying to paint. Just a different approach. I know I coudn't do it! I don't even do that when I'm not working on a piece!
The clutter actually comforts me. It's choas and spread have their own vitality.

I've always observed that quality of attention is crucial. Today researchers call it "effortful practice". Duration of practice means little more than maintenance.

This is the crux. And the Virgo/Pisces once again. The real magic is to find the essence of what it is you need to express yourself. That's the real practice, I think. Attention, seeing, and gleaning.

If I live life well, fully and vividly, what shall I be? A question I must remember and take to heart.

I think a full life is being a lot of characters and leaving in tremendous whim, with the freedom to follow.

1/9/06 4:54 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Ahhh these are grand Kadimiros. Thank you for bringing them here. Jm speaks for my heart for it is still comprehending what my eyes have seen.
Like her i found the Apollo beautiful, and was enchanted by the Mad Artist, feels like me at times part Merlin, -dont look just let it happen. Also the Martyr is quite exceptional.

Very,
very, nice.

1/9/06 6:04 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

"If I live life well, fully and vividly, what shall I be?"

Happy?

1/9/06 6:05 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

"I thought about the cleaning while painting and came to the conclusion that maybe this helps her organize and clarify the vision she's trying to paint. Just a different approach. I know I coudn't do it! I don't even do that when I'm not working on a piece!
The clutter actually comforts me. It's choas and spread have their own vitality."

Me too jm, i thought about the cleaning while painting, as i was cleaning away....a break in the painting. For me chaos is a distraction. I love the serenity of my space filled with the outdoors through it's glass walls. Listening to the Ash and bamboo speak together, they twoine into my work, painting the songs the trees created.

Over the years i have lived and painted in a small small space with all the neighbor children cascading about and folks coming and going in a clamor. This new found silence suits me well.

The division between painting, cleaning, gardening, even emptying the cat box has faded, it all seems one of the same.

1/9/06 6:14 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Did you go to art school?"

I went to an art college, where I had two drawing instructors. I tended to ignore recommended methods, and have a poor grasp of anatomy. There is a touch of impatience in my personality which I suspect shows up as a bit of haste and roughness in my work.

"I also am curious as to whether or not you want to make a career in the marketplace with your fine art talent? Would you be satisfied with a limited audience, not for profit?"

Hmm, I don't feel a strong sense of career there for me, although perhaps it could happen. I have not tried to improve my drawing ability as such since college. I went on to focus on other skills. I would want to take it a level higher to feel satisfied.

I am aware that at a future time, art will somehow become more important to me. I suspect that there are other things that must happen first. Maybe it's akin to Psyche's lessons, living through a certain amount of struggle before one can fully get at the creativity. And, there might emerge another calling superceding fine art.

"What is it about artists I love so much? Both their work and their personas."

Perhaps you are delighted to be delighted. It transports you.

1/9/06 7:20 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"If I live life well, fully and vividly, what shall I be?"

"Happy?"

A very fair answer!

I've always felt that I overworked the Apollo drawing, and should start over fresh. It is based on a statue in a museum.

The Artist was drawn from imagination!

1/9/06 7:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

If I live life well, fully and vividly, what shall I be?

Happy?


Nothing to add from my end.

This new found silence suits me well.

Tseka. I can hardly begin on this one. A few years ago, I asked the universe, begged really, for a moment of silence. And I got it. Now, what am I to do? I savor this so much I don't even know how to proceed in this noisy world. Any advice would be welcomed in the grandest way.

And, there might emerge another calling superceding fine art.

OMG.

My favorite movie ever made was one called "Woman in the Dunes" by a Japanese director, always forget his name. After this masterpiece, he didn't make another movie for 20 years. He did other creative things.
This always haunts me as I know the creative urge resists boundaries. As does the search for transcendental experience. Our artistic musings are small in this big picture. What are we to do, and where to go?

I've always felt that I overworked the Apollo

So here we are. The age old dilemma. The artist and the audience. I am sensitive to overworking and Apollo was on the mark from my view. So? Who's right?

The Artist was drawn from imagination!

I'd like to see some more of what's in this so called imagination.

There is a touch of impatience in my personality which I suspect shows up as a bit of haste and roughness in my work.

Hmmm. Sometimes I think the impatience inspires the artist to leave out what is superfluous anyway. Got me thinking.

2/9/06 5:19 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This always haunts me as I know the creative urge resists boundaries. As does the search for transcendental experience. Our artistic musings are small in this big picture. What are we to do, and where to go?"

It plays with rules by breaking them. (Cupid in the story is described as initially playful and mischievous, hence willing to follow Venus' demand to make Psyche fall in love with an ugly creature -- until he saw Psyche and desired her for himself. If there were no rules, he could not be mischievous.)

The bouncy music video (We Live) in the music player is right now exhorting:

But with life, we never know
When we're coming up to the end of the road.
So what do we do then?
Tragedy around the bend.

We
Live!
We
Love!
We
Forgive!
And never give up!
For today we are given
Our gifts from above,
And today we remember
To live and to love.


We feel intensely. I think we can be a little more compassionate with ourselves, and remind ourselves that it is okay to be where we are. All possibilities play out somewhere, and nourish each other. Nothing is forever lost.

I think that if we enlarge our inner and outer attention to surpass and encompass the little box whose cocoon walls we fear, we grow fit to embrace the tragicomedy of life, to let go and live. Transcendence is only half the answer, because to be and to express our High Selves we must also be immanent, present.

A buddhist might say, sometimes it is suffering which awakens us to life. Psyche in the story falls into a deathlike sleep, and is reawakened to life and to love by Cupid's arrow, the pang of love, a leap in her heart. As butterfly, she can both walk and take flight to play in a larger sphere wherein she before only plodded. In the worm, the butterfly is still sleeping, but longingly hears the call of heaven in her dreams. In the butterfly, the memory of the worm lives on, and whispers encouragingly to her, "Remember me! Fly! FLY!" Her heaven in fact has always contained the earth. In the soul, is the essence of its whole story, beginning and end, alive. We will learn to shift our viewpoint around and around, and fly.

I noticed that the Cupid/Psyche story begins with judgment and ends with forgiveness -- or perhaps we could say, unconditional love and acceptance. I argued with a bigot once. He said that it was undeniable that women's right to vote in government elections opened wide the door to what he called the modern increase of immorality in society. I knocked his assumptions, and I told him to look at real people and the tremendous goodness in real lives. I said, "Only when you can see with the eyes of a god of love, will you be a fitting judge of humankind." And someday our collective discernment will walk us into beauty, and we will have left behind archaic simplistic judgments of good and evil. We will judge it beautiful.

You are highly sensitive, and enjoy reflecting on experience. Probably when you examine specific situations and issues in your life, you can sense how you may be working, or need to be working, things out.

"So here we are. The age old dilemma. The artist and the audience. I am sensitive to overworking and Apollo was on the mark from my view. So? Who's right?"

No right or wrong here, only desire. We are playfully reconciling apparent dualities, dichotomies, discords.

2/9/06 1:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I think we can be a little more compassionate with ourselves, and remind ourselves that it is okay to be where we are.

This is one of my big ones. Major. Major.

Not only it is OK, but it IS, and can't be changed right then.
Like our hair. It's there. We try to change it's appearance, but hardly anyone pulls it out. So there is a fundamental acceptance of what is natural. Some people hate their hair and suffer with this lack of self acceptance, but it IS, and remains on their heads.

The place we are at any given moment is natural and makes perfect sense. We got there through a long series of events and it perfectly reflects our inner dimension at the time.
This is why when I seek change, I go within myself, probably to the desire cupboard, and try to understand why I'm there before trying to get away, unless immediate movement is required.

The metaphor of waiting in lines to get something is a good one. People react in all different ways. You can see 'some' quite relaxed in a line knowing where they are is right and the desire will be satisfied coming up. Some can't wait and cut out, but lose the satisfaction. Others fidget and try to get with it. I love working with lines.

The other main thing is how to ascertain just how much tampering is best. I'm reluctant to get too carried away judging where people are because I don't know if they need to be there to get to the next place. Destiny is an interesting concept(?) and the way we get to ours, no one else can see.

I am a huge champion for respecting the moment.

2/9/06 3:21 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"enchanted by the Mad Artist, feels like me at times part Merlin, - dont look just let it happen. Also the Martyr is quite exceptional."

That is an interesting observation. As a beginner's exercise, one instructor often had us quickly outline--accurately--the human figure without ever looking down at our papers, and without lifting our pencil points from them while drawing. It taught us boldness, conviction, unbroken vision and sure hands.

The Artist resembles the Martyr somewhat. One stands in spacious light and the other stands against a shadowed wall. One is inspired, and the other is religious. The Artist probably carries a more romantic projection.

You may recognize that the Artist, with upraised brush, has an antecedent in the Rider-Waite Tarot card named The Magician, in which a robed figure raises a rod of creative will and desire, drawing spirit down into form. I intended the extra white space above the Artist figure. If I contemplate the Tarot image, I think about artistic inspiration, cautions about illusion and delusion, and infinite layers of reality.

3/9/06 10:39 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Pisces and Virgo:

The Psyche character seems like a Piscean lens. Isn't she a watery type? But there are other lens. I've always liked The Star, and Aquarius the Water Bearer.

I read that the sign Virgo is sometimes identified with Ceres, the goddess of agriculture. An ancient representation of Virgo has wings and a sheaf of grain. Ceres and Prosepina were also identified with each other, the latter being alternately the springtime and the queen of the dead. It has also been suggested that Virgo was once connected with Innana, the ambitious, demanding goddess of love and war, later known as Venus. In Virgo alone, we have connections to several of the goddesses in the Psyche story.

The word soul:

Leaving Greek and Latin behind, I read that the English word "soul" may be connected with an ancient Germanic word sEula which means belonging to the sea. It alludes to ancient Germanic concepts of a medium or "living water" of which all souls are part. How widespread is this idea among cultures?

Physicist Bohm also uses the water analogy to illustrate his viewpoint that all things and events are "subtotalities" derived from a deeper, implicate order of unbroken wholeness.

"On this stream, one may see an ever-changing pattern of vortices, ripples, waves, splashes, etc., which evidently have no independent existence as such." "We must learn to view everything as part of 'Undivided Wholeness in Flowing Movement.'"

We're playing degrees of separation with polymorphous symbols. Dig too much through associations, and the muddier the picture will get, so I think I'll put down the butterfly net, slowly, here.

3/9/06 10:41 AM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Leaving Greek and Latin behind, I read that the English word "soul" may be connected with an ancient Germanic word sEula which means belonging to the sea. It alludes to ancient Germanic concepts of a medium or "living water" of which all souls are part. How widespread is this idea among cultures?

In Swedish (an aboriginal language BTW) soul is Själ, Sjä is the sea. If we travel over to Icelandic where the ancient roots of both languages twine, we find Sjä is also "to See."

The soul has three words one is Själ mortal, individual, one is Kjarni; core, nucleus or seed; and one is this: Hugskot the psyche. This is most close to the meaning in the Psyche myth. Hug (huggin, Odin's raven thought) + skot (shot or shooting like a harpoon i think). Not too far from being pierced by an arrow?

Själ is also connected to sjal, a shawl and skot in swedish means a sheet. So there is as sense of the word for soul being a veiling or covering. This reminds me of what the Sammi people say, we come into the world by putting on a cloak and when die we take off the cloak but we are always present....not so different from Bohm's thoughts on the matter.

i leave this here also a little butterfly for the net.
Munύő, pleasure, love. Munύő is a contraction of (mun memory Odin's left shoulder raven munnin) + (hugä, thought, Odin's right shoulder raven) The two Raven halves of Hel (whole) = pleasure, love.
With Pluto sitting in the Galactic Center aka Hel's Path or Hel's garden it might be well for us to remember this.

4/9/06 9:40 AM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Hel's garden, the Milky Way, is "the path of souls" in the Northwind myth.

4/9/06 9:47 AM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Aha Psyche breath
thought-shooting or a shooting thought inspiration??

4/9/06 12:38 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I think psyche in our language basically means breath, but with all those great definitions it does end up looking like a medium of connection to an unseen world out of the material plane. Something sensed but not by the 5 senses. The location seems to be in question, and probably for good reason. It's anywhere.

Hel's garden, the Milky Way, is "the path of souls" in the Northwind myth.

And that's exactly where we are now. With Pluto going under maybe we are free to walk this path to higher experience. Sagittarius is all about this and next year with Jupiter in Sag is going to be revealing. As Psyche beckons us away from fear into love.

The two Raven halves of Hel (whole) = pleasure, love.

Great great connection. These separations we experience lead us back on the path to Eros and I think they come all the time. This one seems to be a little more of a collective experience with the outer planets where they are and the Milky Way center being activated.

4/9/06 10:00 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Thank you for the absolutely wonderful dance, tseka and jm. Much for contemplation. Very apropos, I took a look over the weekend at tseka's gallery of breathtakingly refreshing and cleansing watercolor paintings, Songs of Water.

Speaking of terms for the Milky Way, it is, of course, often compared to or even called a river in many cultures.

"These separations we experience lead us back on the path to Eros and I think they come all the time. This one seems to be a little more of a collective experience with the outer planets where they are and the Milky Way center being activated."

I'll copy here something I found elsewhere: "The collective soul is a shared sense of purpose that allows individuals to connect to and contribute to something greater than themselves. That sense of purpose creates connections in which we can talk, listen, and repond to each other's needs. To lose that is to lose our collective soul."

5/9/06 11:42 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Kad, nice words.

Tseka knows a lot about the river and the Milky Way. I never tire of this concept and the talk. I'm putting this thread back on top to continue this substantial and completely enjoyable conversation in the river of babble around me.

Thanks so much for contributing.

5/9/06 4:02 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Kadimiros.
What a fascinating list of translations. Thnk you so much. The animal symbolism is a whole other line of discussion, probably related to geography. I wonder if mythology is based mostly on topography.
I like the Mongolian:heavenly seam.
I'm going to study these.

In all the oceanic Neptune affecting us now, and the river in our galaxy, I find myself enjoying linear thought as a boat, so to speak...a balancing device at the moment. The stringing up of related ideas that stay on a similar path is interesting compared to the tangents and spontaneous eruptions that are sometimes followed erratically.

Too much structure makes me want to leap and jump, but a heavy water emphasis seems to encourage the intellectual. The emotional flow is on automatic now, so maybe my mind is freed up.

5/9/06 4:26 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"nice words"

For some Jungian goosebumps, look again at the linked discussion exploring the term "collective soul", and you will see that the question was posed by a person using a username, "Milky Way", and answered by another person using a username, "River."

5/9/06 4:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is inspiring.

The full moon in Pisces is all about this collective soul, and the transits have been leading us here. As Pluto is in this River in the center of the galaxy, all the separations highlighted in the last years in Sagittarius are becoming diffused. There is an underlying commonality emerging, which is by design.

The Pisces Moon on Thursday is a culmination, but the Uranus(collective thought) and the Neptune(collective feeling) are working in tandem for some time, as Pluto ends his journey through Sagittarius. The change in Pluto is also a factor.

Next year when Jupiter is in Sag dancing with this Uranus/Neptune I think we will see some results, and an awakening of the collective soul/psyche.

My original sense that the terror game was dissolving might be correct as we discover the safety of collective belonging to some extent. The comparison to Hitler last week fizzled and became ridiculous, as we are moving away, possibly to another dimension. The water both in the inner seas and the River called the Milky Way are seeing to this. The increments are tiny but huge in their effect.

a shared sense of purpose that allows individuals to connect to and contribute to something greater than themselves.

5/9/06 4:48 PM  
Blogger jm said...

For some Jungian goosebumps, look again at the linked discussion exploring the term "collective soul", and you will see that the question was posed by a person using a username, "Milky Way", and answered by another person using a username, "River."

OMG.

We are truly connected.

5/9/06 4:50 PM  
Blogger jm said...

If there ever was a time to look at the big collective picture, this is it.
It's no mistake Kad, that in my love of cosmic orchestration, you came along.
You are a Pisces rising with 1000 planets in Aquarius. You are the Man of the Moment.

Tseka and Pat Paquette are Aquarius risings, with 2000 Pisces points between them. It doesn't get any better.

Now the Saturn opposition to Neptune is delineating the whole picture and bringing it into sharp and clear view.

I am in heaven.

5/9/06 4:59 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

jm wrote: The undertow of base ugly behavior isn't dark to me. It has light and horrible color. Garishness, unbearable disharmony, screams, and all those things.

Ah yes, I missed this particular thread. Thank you for sharing it. I have time for only one comment. jm, if you have ever read Madeleine L'Engle's books A Wrinkle In Time, and A Wind in the Door, and esp. A Swiftly Tilting Planet, you might recall something: you just describe Echthroi. Greek Ech = X, nothingness. Echthroi, plural, Echthros, singular. They are the purveyors of exactly those things you describe. Uncanny that you should say this.

5/9/06 5:15 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I must add. This is uncanny.

I too looked at tseka's work again over the weekend. Every time I do this, it's a new experience, and I see them differently.

The interesting thing, collectively speaking, is that this time I went immediately to Spring Comes Again, the most often viewed one of all.

I don't think it's the central location, because I understand the eye goes left first.

5/9/06 5:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I love a Wrinkle in Time!!!
She's one of my favorites.

Also uncanny is that we both posted this word at the same time unbeknownst to each other.

5/9/06 5:19 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Ahhh, good idea jm, continuing the discussion on "Psyche" there is still so much to be said here.

How good to come by after a hard day framing, and find the luminous thoughts...nothing from me for a bit, i've been working like a madwoman and my legs feel like cedarstumps, brain more like the sawdust. Now i have to learn how to work this new digicam. Mundane stuff, i'll get it...eventually.

Thanks for the kind words, Kadimiros, about the paintings. More to come once i get this camera figured out.

5/9/06 5:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

my legs feel like cedarstumps, brain more like the sawdust.

Well, under the circumstances I will accept the dearth of your expertise.....for the moment. It will be worth it for digicam photos though.

5/9/06 5:34 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Well of course that didn't last, the cedar stump legs comment reminded me of a wonderful experience.

Collective consciousness, soul bridges, and "outside of time" were an accepted part of the world i grew up in.

When i was 7ish, a man was "singing" a cedar into a canoe in the forest behind our house. Every day after school, i would go and perch on the stump, let the rain slide down my back and watch. Listen to the song of the carver and the song of the cedar as the adze thudded into her belly. One day after several of silence, the carver asked why i was still there, i was waiting to see if the tree could really be a canoe. Of course the carver replied and puffed himself up, Dumb, Little white-haired girl.
But i didn't think so, she is going to be a mother was my thought....he laughed like crazy. But he wasn't listening, the cedar wasn't singing the same song, she was rotted inside. Years later i went back to visit her found her half into the earth covered in ferns and small saplings.

The idea that we can be "sung" into another image of ourself has never left me, but listening is an art i lost back then, i am hoping that being gifted with much silence assists in its return

5/9/06 5:55 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The animal symbolism is a whole other line of discussion, probably related to geography. I wonder if mythology is based mostly on topography."

Probably strongly influenced. There is something about place that is suggestive of a climate of the spirit. Animals, synchronicitous omens, and nature, it's all rather shamanic when you think about it.

We were taught the Greek myths in school, much by rote; the instruction poorly conveyed the importance of the language of symbols.

My sister's therapist is psychic. She told me once that a lot of what she does when working psychically is facilitated by symbols that spontaneously appear in her mind in response to questions and issues, and that communication between the conscious mind and deeper layers of psyche is greatly enhanced through developing a personal vocabulary of symbols. For example, if she sees "a big fish swallowing a smaller fish", then that means that the corporation in question will be bought out by a larger corporation. Maybe the symbolic image is like a hook by which the conscious mind can reel in the catch.

Noted astrologer/author Robert Hand wrote essays on astrology as a kind of language that evolved (and is evolving) for communication between the human species and Nature. He thought that astrology works through the combined magic of an entire civilization, and that the astrological traditions specific to a culture is naturally more suited to it and its concerns.

River of Birds by Libana

There's a river of birds in migration
A nation of women with wings
There's a river of whales in migration
A nation of men who will sing

5/9/06 5:56 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The idea that we can be "sung" into another image of ourself has never left me, but listening is an art i lost back then, i am hoping that being gifted with much silence assists in its return"

Hmm, you wrote all that while I was digging up the song lyrics describing humanity as "a river of birds in migration" -- "a nation of women with wings" and "a nation of men who will sing." I take "migration" as suggesting a journey of change.

5/9/06 6:03 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Gasp! beautiful the river of birds...sigh.


What you speak of in the rest of your post is pretty much the idea behind Homeopathy. The similimum heals us. We each have a particular time of day, season, place, etc that we resonate to. In my cradle-land the people call it our tamanawas our "spirit totem" or medicine or power we each have an animal which is connected to other kindred, a landscape, a season, a scent, even an echo. We are it and it is us connected, though we have mostly forgotten.

5/9/06 6:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Oh my god. I go away for two seconds and a river turns into an ocean. So much in the last comments.

There's a river of birds in migration
A nation of women with wings
There's a river of whales in migration
A nation of men who will sing


Beautiful, Kad. A river of birds is a great image. Thanks for the link to this fine artist. Very churchy.

Tseka, gorgeous story. How wise you have always been.
As a mystic and musician, the subject of silence is one of the greatest for me. I seek silence and have gotten more and more as life goes on. And it begets even more desire. I hear more and more real music and feel less and less like mudddying it up too much. Empty space is required.

The idea that we can be "sung" into another image of ourself has never left me, but listening is an art i lost back then, i am hoping that being gifted with much silence assists in its return

The gift of silence is immeasurable, but what's even greater, is the ability to embrace it.

Maybe a thread on this subject and the problem of noise in the collective.

I think the mythology is geographic for protection in the immediate environment. And the elevation and worship of the material reality people know.

He thought that astrology works through the combined magic of an entire civilization, and that the astrological traditions specific to a culture is naturally more suited to it and its concerns.

Tseka has been synthesizing the differnt cultural variations and finding the commonality with success. Very interesting.

5/9/06 6:25 PM  
Blogger jm said...

In my cradle-land the people call it our tamanawas our "spirit totem" or medicine or power we each have an animal which is connected to other kindred, a landscape, a season, a scent, even an echo.

I believe this. I think it accompanies us always and we perceive it beyond the normal sensory range, but bring it in closer when necessary. If we grasp it in reality too much, it loses its mystique and some of its spiritual use. So it's a delicate line between dense material cognition and the illusive.

Psyche and her invisible husband.

5/9/06 6:30 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I take "migration" as suggesting a journey of change.

I concur. And the river of birds adds to the image of a river in the sky...the Milky Way.

Our stop in at this river is now ending and the migration is probably going to be in full swing as we head for new experience in this changed direction. I'm already there.

5/9/06 6:38 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

'We were taught the Greek myths in school, much by rote; the instruction poorly conveyed the importance of the language of symbols.

Ja and this is how so much has been lost in all the cultures. Native myths and legend was mostly written by white christian men. Those who visited the west coast were influenced by Rousseau's Noble Savage...and missed most of the nuance. In the tsetseka dances the breath, the stamp of the feet the pauses, all had meaning. The mask were iconograhic not just pretty painted artwork. All of these were seen and recorded by the basically clueless.

Same with the Eddas of the Scandinavia. They were scribed for the church....You have to read between the lines and look close at the ancient words meaning.

5/9/06 6:42 PM  
Blogger jm said...

You have to read between the lines and look close at the ancient words meaning.

One of my life's dictums. All knowledge is between the lines of information in my experience.

5/9/06 6:49 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

'As a mystic and musician, the subject of silence is one of the greatest for me. I seek silence and have gotten more and more as life goes on. And it begets even more desire. I hear more and more real music and feel less and less like mudddying it up too much. Empty space is required.

Empty space ~ja JM our shared passion, the space between raindrops.

5/9/06 6:50 PM  
Anonymous casey said...

gee, you guys, you make me feel a neophyte in the temple. i can't keep up.

tseka, your watercolors are exquisite. I love them.

kadimiros, so are your drawings.

I feel i should be wailing "i'm not worthy, i'm not worthy". you guys are so far ahead of me.

5/9/06 7:12 PM  
Blogger Neith said...

Of course the carver replied and puffed himself up, Dumb, Little white-haired girl.
But i didn't think so, she is going to be a mother was my thought....he laughed like crazy. But he wasn't listening, the cedar wasn't singing the same song, she was rotted inside. Years later i went back to visit her found her half into the earth covered in ferns and small saplings.


LOL!! Mother indeed! Often when passing those lush green places on the Westside, I can't help but think how quickly humankind's efforts would disappear without constant pressure against the Green . . . it is such a presence there.

5/9/06 7:34 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Do you know this Sámi poet, Nils-Aslak Valkeapää?

During the summer night
I talk to
the stones at the water's edge


And they answer
but i don't know their language

5/9/06 7:46 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Don't feel bad, Casey. I'm still trying to figure out how to find this artwork by Kadimiros that you're all looking at.

5/9/06 7:46 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Joe hej scroll back up nearer to the top and you will find a Blue hypetext link "Lifedrawings" within one of Kadimiros posts.

Ps sorry to hear about all the virus, regardless of the potential "message" it still is a drag to lose our stuff- i lost 2 years of hel research and a whole ton of Native myth so i bought myself a CD burner. Hey i'm catching up to the 12 year olds tech-wise.

5/9/06 8:08 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Do you know this Sámi poet, Nils-Aslak Valkeapää?"

No, but the on-line encyclopedia entries are tantalizing:

* * *

"Nils-Aslak Valkeapää" -- The traditional sami singing joik was important in his art, in music as well as in painting and in writing.

* * *

Originally, yoik referred to only one of several Sami singing styles, but in English the word is often used to refer to all types of traditional Sami singing. Its sound is comparable to the traditional chanting of some American Indian cultures.

Each yoik is meant to reflect a person or place. This does not mean that it is a song about the person or place, but that the yoiker is attempting to transfer "the essence" of that person or place into song - one yoiks their friend, not about their friend. It usually has short lyrics or no lyrics at all. This type of song can be deeply personal or spiritual in nature. Improvisation is not unusual. There are other forms of yoik (in the expanded sense of the word) that have a more epic type of lyrics.

5/9/06 9:14 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Ja Kadimiros it can sweep you away. Some songs are only the sounds of the earth speaking, the wind, water, trees.

5/9/06 9:23 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

from my bookmarks:
the eulogy for Nils-Aslak Valkeapää

http://www.baiki.org/content/nils.htm
here's a part of one of his poems.
I leave
to arrive
go away
to be closer

To the space of your thoughts
to your heart
I crawl
into the heart

I journey
on the sea of time
follow
the tracks of the wind

From Trekways of the Wind by Nils-Aslak Valkeapää,

The books are out of print i keep looking, lusting....or is it yearning?

5/9/06 9:29 PM  
Blogger jm said...

leave
to arrive
go away
to be closer


That's how I feel. Desire and longing. All polarity.

gee, you guys, you make me feel a neophyte in the temple. i can't keep up.

That's a beautiful comment. I would call that right in step. You don't have to follow it all. Sagittarius and the gift of gab will drive any normal person nuts! Kad has a Sag MC to add to the hullabaloo. Jump in when you can.
Joe also has a lot of Sag, but surprisingly he isn't as effervescent as some. That's because of his Saturn in Gemini holding up the works.

But, Casey, you can run in between those proverbial raindrops. The things you say are to the point and really good.

The real culprit is me with my Jupiter at 20 sag. Jupiter inflates everything it touches. Well, it merges entirely with tseka's 20 degree Mercury, her communication. Then to add to that, Kad has a 24 Sag MC, and there goes my Jupiter bumping him.

It's a joy ride but there's room for everybody.

5/9/06 9:51 PM  
Blogger jm said...

BTW, a good time to catch up here is when we're asleep.

I'll try to put a pamphlet together on how to deal with a gassed up universe traveling, mind bending, philosophical, god seeking, 'there's no tomorrow' Sagittarius archetype. It might help.

5/9/06 10:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Back to the river.

I was thinking that rivers have provided cleansing of wrongdoings and redemption for mankind. Absolution. Purification, if you will. Spiritual uplifting.

Except the River Styx, full of poison and cannot be touched. So this nasty river doesn't forgive us but lets us go beyond redemption. I wonder why this heavy river down there.

6/9/06 5:08 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Don't forget the River Lethe. In Greek mythology, the Lethe is one of the rivers that flow through Hades. The shades of the dead had to drink from this river to forget about their past lives on earth.

6/9/06 5:51 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Kadimiros, thanks for sharing Mellen-Thomas Benedict's story. This was one of the many non-9/11 documents I had saved but lost when my files got deleted by the trojan virus. I'll rebuild my files yet, although some are things I may never find again, things that would be of interest to this group. Ah well...

Your drawings: Turning Man looks very satyr-like, and very Greek. Thanks for sharing these as well.

6/9/06 5:58 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

jm, I'm not sure if Blogger notifies the blog-owner of new posts, but I did respond to the transit discussion you and I had in the Victory!!! post on Pluto.

6/9/06 6:18 AM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Joe -good, River Lethe.
I await the lake photos. Will look over at Nieth's too.

6/9/06 6:45 AM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Joe -good, River Lethe.
I await the lake photos. Will look over at Nieth's too.

6/9/06 6:46 AM  
Anonymous tseka said...

OMG a 24 Sag MC? conjuct the GC. How's Pluto? He went over my MC as coupla years ago. How close is your Cap sun, merc, venus? are any in the 10th as well?

jm my venus 15 sco is probably conj your node?

i got a message: Blogger is having difficulties, guess so am hoping this does not double post.

6/9/06 6:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and conjunct my moon/mars, tseka

6/9/06 12:25 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

I journey
on the sea of time
follow
the tracks of the wind


Wow...The writing feels beautiful and spacious, much like Nature herself.

gee, you guys, you make me feel a neophyte in the temple. i can't keep up.

The water's fine! Jump in!

This blog is jm's art, and she has invited us all to play.

Swim in the river of souls
to the ocean of dreams.
The blackest sea
is filled with stars
to guide you.

6/9/06 2:08 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Kadimiros, thanks for sharing Mellen-Thomas Benedict's story. This was one of the many non-9/11 documents I had saved but lost when my files got deleted by the trojan virus."

You're welcome, Joe! I think I've seen a slightly longer version of that story somewhere, but that's a lot of it.

I toss a lot of articles in a folder, too, and I sometimes suspect that I'll never look at the bulk of them ever again. Perhaps a lesson I should heed for the way I organize my head, my life, and most importantly, my closets.

6/9/06 2:18 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Closets? Only to become a mess in the blink of an eye! In the frenzy of creating your all important self image in the world?

This blog is jm's art, and she has invited us all to play.

I brought the canvas, laid down a few strokes myself, but YOU are the artists too. That's what is so intriguing about this. It's like being a playwright with a completely adlibbed script. With no end in sight but that which one imposes. Full of wonder and surprises.

The blackest sea
is filled with stars
to guide you

S'why I'm an astrologer.

Tseka, my node is 10.

Kadimiros, do you mind if I give tseka the specs on your chart? Birth info? As a matter of fact I feel like delving into all our charts and pointing out the connections.

6/9/06 3:02 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Birth info? As a matter of fact I feel like delving into all our charts and pointing out the connections."

Sure, go ahead, it feels safe enough! Should we continue this discussion somewhere else?

6/9/06 3:05 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'll put up an astro thread very very shortly, but meanwhile, we can continue here or on the next post, coming up very very very shortly.

Joe, the Victory!!! thread ran off, but it's back up where your questione is addressed.

6/9/06 3:15 PM  
Blogger jm said...

To start with....

Kadimiros.January 8, 1962,10:20 AM, New York, New York.

K's got Sun, Venus, Mars in Capricorn and Saturn, Mercury, Jupiter, Moon in Aquarius all in the 10th and 11th, and 12th houses, and all together in a bundle. Transpersonal to the max.

Venus/Mars...10th
Sun/Saturn/Merc...11th
Moon/Jupiter....12th

Neptune is 13 Scorpio conjunct guess who's Venus? Yup! You got it! Tseka's!

There are some fascinating connections all around.

What I am going to do is a thread on each chart and we can put our brilliant minds together to analyze each one. Then synthesize and see the connections. The sooner the better as this will be delightful and enlightening.

6/9/06 3:25 PM  
Blogger jm said...

First decision. Do we pick straws, go alphabetically, go by no. of lines in the face, go geographically, go by age, or whoever shrieks the loudest, "me first!"?

6/9/06 3:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'll tie this in with the nodes and we can go into detail in each chart. I'll spend forever if you so desire on each one. It's incredibly fascinating and everyone can learn so much.

The stars have always been a navigational tool for man, and they still are.

6/9/06 3:40 PM  
Blogger Neith said...

jm, please do Joe's chart first . . . that way as the other charts unfold he will have an opportunity to learn as we go!

6/9/06 5:15 PM  
Blogger jm said...

OK. I'm going to go over some basics first anyway.
We'll learn so much. Enthusiasm is the key, and we've got plenty of that.

6/9/06 5:21 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

This is a great idea jm, a good way to learn! i like Neith's suggestion to do Joe first, do you mind Joe?

Guess i need to break out a new notebook, this is exciting.

Kadimiros, i went just now and looked at your chart....well...i did say you felt kindred when you walked into JM's salon.

tseka: 20 December 1951, 11:09 (am) LT 122w12 47n59

6/9/06 6:26 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

I don't mind a bit! Have at it, I'm ready and waiting. :o)

6/9/06 6:53 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Tseka!!!!! Your chart! Thank you ever so much. I've been on pins and needles wondering if I'd ever see it.

Yeeeeaaayyyyy!!!!!

This is going to be a blast. I'm already getting started.

6/9/06 9:31 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Thanks for sharing your birth data, tseka. I see what you mean. I'll wait for jm to get around to our charts, before commenting on the Pluto-MC transit.

You were born in Washington state? Beautiful region at 47°N 122°W

7/9/06 12:36 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Ja, pretty, the link you posted is some south,(~60mi?) down around Mt Rainier, so reflects more the western side of the Cascade Mountain Range climate. Homeland for me was on a bluff above the Puget Sound, Mt Rainier was seen in the distance through the kitchen window along with some islands. Mostly wilderness around us, typical of the islands in the San Juans or Georgia Strait if you've been to BC.

I am curious about the Galactic Core experience...it figures prominently in charts of my family. I look forward to learning about it's expression, it appears to be a point of unusual creativity.

7/9/06 2:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I am extreeeeeeemly interested in the Pluto MC transits. I have it coming up. It will oppose my Sun in the 4th and possibly provide the suction to get me out in the world for good.

It's interesting that this Pluto transit of the GC brought us together, we who have planets there.

It's amazing how diverse countries are within. From region to region we have different universes. I hope with Pluto in Capricorn we can get dwon to business and address the concerns of all the parts of the country.

7/9/06 2:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The Galactic Core is a mystery. When I try to follow other astrologer's comments, I am stunned at the vagueness of their attempted discussions of this point. Ends up sounding like 2nd grade babble. Not so unusual, though.

But now is the time to peer into the spot, and see what emerges. I think we can start by looking at the "central" factor. What does a center indicate?

7/9/06 2:57 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I also want to go in progressive logical order to get to the MC in the chart. The Asc/7th and IC/MC alone tell us a great deal about our lives. I think there is a skeletal structure that is the basic matrix and if this is understood, the essential bone structure of the chart, the other factors make more sense.

In a lot of ways the Sun and Moon are secondary to other things, the nodes being two. Every element is vital, but there are dominant fundamentals that seem to be involved in every experience.

Depending on aspects and such, the Sun is what we already know, so for many people it is something being left alone somewhat to operate automatically as they evolve into other forms.

The Ascendent is primary and I'm going to start with that.

There is so much information in a chart, and people get all mixed up, but it really makes sense as a whole integrated entity, and that's what I've always excelled at. The battling factors just toy with us and confuse, but the big picture is there too. Back to Virgo/Pisces, and analysis vs synthesis. The joke in astrology when they start with the biquntiles, the midpoints, the thousands of progressions, etc, is that the person is Virgoizing. It's enjoyable for some, but no answers are there that aren't obvious from the major configurations. It's all repeated patterns. So you can look many places.

7/9/06 3:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And just a quick word on the GC, Sagittarius, and Pluto.

After Scorpio which is the ultimate in interpersonal relationship comes Sagittarius, where man looks up and sees himself in the cosmos for the 1st time, rather than in another's eyes. He starts to see the microcosm/macrocosm and here starts philosphical and religious study.

So with Pluto in the GC now, this urge for self understanding and broader connection is vibrating like mad. It's a brief opportunity. Astrology is just a language for interpretation of this connection, and can be quite simple. I would think now that the communication is stepped up everyone interested will grasp way more than usual. I've waited for this time, unknowingly, of course.

If things go according to plan, and we heighten awareness just a tad, when the '08 election comes around with Pluto at 29 Sagittarius we will be ready to elect a more evolved President. This is what I'm preparing for as we leave this Sag learning moment behind and go on to other jobs with Pluto in capricorn.

7/9/06 3:26 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

I rather like Phil Sedgewick's thougths on the Galactic Center; as a place of cosmic downloading. He, in his unusual way that blends physics and math seems to even speak the language of the GC.

7/9/06 4:24 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'll take a look and see what he says.

7/9/06 4:29 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The downloading is a good description. I concur that it is a point of information exchange. I still go with my view that is a vortex and flushing out point of detritus and doubles as a new information entrance.

7/9/06 4:34 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Kadimiros has it down pat, i recognized it immediately, that language of time/space mythic and physical all bound in some "out of time" thought pattern, very shamanic.
My son has Neptune 27 sag +(asc 20 sag) he's got "it" too, he speaks with Dolphins and they with him...
We can have a lost in time conversaion about cortisol uptake factors that stared over breakfast coffee and suddnely realize 4 hours have elapsed.

I think your comment about the joy ride is pretty apt.

I'm like a dog with his head hanging out the window loving every second as we speed through new land.

When pluto went over my MC is pretty potent stuff, it will be interesting to compare notes.

7/9/06 4:36 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Another possibility is the eye of the storm. As Pluto turned direct the Israeli/Lebanese conflict flared, but now there is a strange calm. WWIII seems to be over already. It will be interesting to see what direction it takes.

7/9/06 4:36 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Tseka you are so adorable sometimes.

I'm like a dog with his head hanging out the window loving every second as we speed through new land.

That's happiness.

My son has Neptune 27 sag +(asc 20 sag) he's got "it" too, he speaks with Dolphins and they with him...
We can have a lost in time conversation about cortisol uptake factors that stared over breakfast coffee and suddnely realize 4 hours have elapsed.


Oh how I would love to get in on that conversation. Cortisol is a BIG interest of mine.

I also communicate with animals. They act like I'm one of them. They come listen to my music when I rehearse (the birds being my biggest fans, although the fruitflies like my piano), and the insects in my basement come to visit me regularly.

Cortisol and the other hormones are the messengers, I think, between the sensory input and the feeling response. As Neptune and Uranus work together now, they are probably influencing our hormonal interaction.

7/9/06 4:44 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I wonder as the colors of the spectrum relate to our chakras, and the cosmic connection to our individual bodies is always sensed, if the GC could be a switchboard where we get especially connected viscerally with the cosmos.

7/9/06 4:47 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

"if the GC could be a switchboard where we get especially connected viscerally with the cosmos."

Ja,something like that. If we listen we hear.

i have been aware of this regiion for a lifetime, and Sirius too. I think of these points as the in/out gates. Vortices? maybe, but possibly more like an acelleration effect similar to coriolus.

dunno.

I'd like to see Neo come into the conversation. His neptune -this is a guess from reading your conversation with him must be around 18-19 sag. I have a strong suspicion that Neptune in Sag among these amazing 20 somethings is gonna be very influential in our future. A plastic, flexible thinking,which brings creative solutions.
Maybe you can invite him? I'd flatter if i thought it would help, he's something.

7/9/06 5:24 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

"I also communicate with animals. They act like I'm one of them. They come listen to my music when I rehearse (the birds being my biggest fans,"

not surprised, jm, not surprised.

"although the fruitflies like my piano), and the insects in my basement cometo visit me regularly."

hahahaha you crack me up.

well if you lived nearer you could come by and we could yak away. I'm not much good after 4 pm being an early rising woman. Now my son would be very happy to talk all night. that's his creative time.

7/9/06 5:32 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

acceleration umm see what i mean after 4pm....plus glue sniffing, framing today, bad stuff framing is, but man the result, it's all about packaging.

7/9/06 5:36 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I have a strong suspicion that Neptune in Sag among these amazing 20 somethings is gonna be very influential in our future.

I agree. I once spent some time with a Sun/Neptune Sag and I was stunned by his wisdom. He was about 11. Sag children are like that anyway, but he is with me today in an unusually strong memory.

I'd like to see Neo come into the conversation

I invited him. Maybe you can ask him yourself. He'll come when ready. He's absorbed in the political discussion now, but since it's so depressing, he seems to be edging toward a more upbeat discourse. We'll see.

7/9/06 5:38 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I would be enchanted with your son. Who knows which way the wind will blow. When I get a van, when I get some money, when I get my career in full gear, when the cows come home, I might hit the road agin.

I always laughed at my artist who besides being fond of alcohol, was chemically altered by turpentine, glue, oils, and all the other amazing side effects of being a genius painter.
He was working in a frame shop when I met him, and he was none to normal then.

7/9/06 5:43 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I had my basement window open the other night, and this HUGE spider came sauntering in and wouldn't take no for an answer. I like spiders but this one was way too big for the bed he was trying to get on. His legs were carefully negotiating the terrain and it was funny to watch. I placed him back outside, reluctantly. I don't like to interfere with any creature's pleasure.

When I came down to furnish my basement, the spiders went crazy. It was their private world till I got there, and they couldn't get enough of me. The watched me paint the ceiling in rapt attention, and visit me often now.

7/9/06 5:49 PM  
Blogger jm said...

My favorite age in the human being is 10 years old. I think it is one of the greatest times of enlightenment. Sometimes I think it is such an awakening that some of the understanding goes back in later.

I use to see my sister's eyes dazzle at that age in a way I've never forgotten. Her curiosity was boundless.

I love teenagers too and now all young people interest me as I see more and more the future potential full of vitality and ripening beautifully. I've had friends of all ages all my life. I don't make an arbitrary separation, just like I don't with gender and all the other things.

7/9/06 6:07 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

Your basement sounds a lot like this place- the animals seem to think i'm entertaining and come and lounge on my patio, bobcats, coyotes, reptiles, snakes tortoises, birds of all kind. Sometimes they lounge on me...birds mostly.


A raven, an old female, a very close friend, brings me trinkets for my zen rock garden. She watched me haul out rock, i imagined i wanted daylilies outside my window but the ground was filled with trash, broken beer bottles,caps and car parts the prev owner had buried. I abandoned the flowers and stood the lovely granite up on end -maybe a bit too phallic, so softened the area by adding some grasses and bamboo. The entire time Raven perched in a Joshua Tree watching, not commenting, a couple of days after i finished i spied her in the garden. Hummmm, a mouse? nope she brought me my first present, a red christmas lightbulb, with peeling paint, more trash,but it was dazzling in the morning light. I got it. A few days later she brought me a green one. Then other lovely shiny objects. I bring her things from the beach, shells and sea smooth stones.

The bobcats (only the males) leave me dead stuff, i surreptitiously dump them over the edge of the hill in the bushes, they probably know it and circle back thinking ungrateful food waster.

ain't life grand!

7/9/06 6:33 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Omg. This is beautiful. I'm in awe.

This is why I love the animals and your story is one of the most poignant I've ever heard.

Raven's gifts are wonderful. This says so much about you.

the animals seem to think i'm entertaining.

We are endlessly entertaing to them and they love communicating. I think they're here to guide us and keep us company. The desolation would be unbearable without them. I think that's why people who don't particularly like the social world are perfectly comfortable. They have the animals to keep all loneliness away.

They understand and sympathize with us. We are stuck having to do so many unnatural things, unlike them.

abandoned the flowers and stood the lovely granite up on end -maybe a bit too phallic, so softened the area by adding some grasses and bamboo.

Chuckle, chuckle.

I'm really thinking about that van. What a joy it would be to visit the patio with all those frequent guests.

7/9/06 10:42 PM  
Anonymous tseka said...

You'ld be welcome JM but you never know who might wander by the bobcats left for two years on some adventure, now are visiiting, Raven is off nesting, some new kids will be joining us later. Her older ones like to tease me, shit on my truck- more gifts? A friend says bird poop is good luck, i think that sounds like an excuse not to wash your car.

8/9/06 7:11 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Shit on your truck! Bird poop on a truck has GOT to be good luck! Not having to wash the car is fabulous fortune....for a Neptune in the 6th like me. Dusting around here is blowing on it.

What is your truck like? I love anything with wheels.

8/9/06 1:13 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Well if the lesser(ha ha!) creatures aren't available, then we can always talk to each other. That could eat up 10 lifetimes minimum.

8/9/06 2:28 PM  

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