Wednesday, July 04, 2007

Happy Independence Day.

85 Comments:

Anonymous Joe said...

I wrote this in my journal 1 year ago today. Sadly, not much has changed.

This Independence Day, I reflect on the words of Howard Zinn:

Should Americans welcome the expansion of the nation's power, with the anger this has generated among so many people in the world? Should we welcome the huge growth of the military budget at the expense of health, education, the needs of children, one fifth of whom grow up in poverty? Instead of being feared for our military prowess, we should want to be respected for our dedication to human rights. I suggest that a patriotic American who cares for her or his country might act on behalf of a different vision. Should we not begin to redefine patriotism? We need to expand it beyond that narrow nationalism that has caused so much death and suffering. If national boundaries should not be obstacles to trade-- some call it "globalization"--should they also not be obstacles to compassion and generosity? Should we not begin to consider all children, everywhere, as our own? In that case, war, which in our time is always an assault on children, would be unacceptable as a solution to the problems of the world. Human ingenuity would have to search for other ways.

And these are my words:

Let us declare our independence from shallow patriotism, thoughtless jingoism, and creeping corporatism, all of which lead us astray from the model of liberty, responsibility, and justice in equal measure, which our country professes to embody.

4/7/07 5:54 AM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Very nice Joe!

As the grandmother's would say<" All of our Children ARE all of our Children."

4/7/07 6:33 AM  
Anonymous chrispito said...

Happy Independance Day my lovely pals! I have two lovely Cancerian pals celebrating birthdays in the next day, so I also will send a toast to you.

4/7/07 6:54 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Joe, that's perfect. Quite clearly, the nationalism is the widest form of love of which many people are capable. It becomes a justification for fencing in the heart. Pride that is not vainglory can be a virtue, but a higher evolution calls us beyond the aspect of nationalism that circumscribes humanity's potentials.

There is hope here. The seeds of what we will be are present in what we are and have been. I always imagine the bursting holiday fireworks to symbolize the exuberant breaking free of former limits. That's still very Martian or Uranian in spirit, but not martial.

Have a good 4th, everyone! :-)

4/7/07 7:21 AM  
Anonymous -pd- said...

Bravo, joe. I heartily agree.
I fervently hope that the USA's progressed Mars in Libra retrograde period, now beginning, signifies, in part, a collective turning away from militaristic impulses, stimulated by the experience of their fruitlessness. Mars in Libra, as I know personally, is most effective in cooperative, collaborative and diplomatic efforts.
I always imagine the bursting holiday fireworks to symbolize the exuberant breaking free of former limits. A most beautiful image.

4/7/07 7:52 AM  
Blogger Neith said...

Let us declare our independence from shallow patriotism, thoughtless jingoism, and creeping corporatism, all of which lead us astray from the model of liberty, responsibility, and justice in equal measure, which our country professes to embody.

Very well said, Joe. I keep reminding myself that change on a national scale usually comes very slowly. There is a shift in the air though . . .

LOVE FIREWORKS!!! when I lived in San Diego years ago we could see the nightly display at Sea World all summer long . . . sigh, :-)

4/7/07 8:26 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

I always imagine the bursting holiday fireworks to symbolize the exuberant breaking free of former limits. That's still very Martian or Uranian in spirit, but not martial.

I like that image as well, Kadimiros. :o)

It occurred to me a bit later that the shallow patriotism of which I speak is much like the religiosity of fundamentalists of any kind. Whether they adhere to the Constitution of the United States, or the Bible/Koran/Talmud/whatever, the effect is the same:
In neither case do they really understand, in depth, the words they ostensibly support.

Blind allegiance serves no one.

4/7/07 10:06 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

I simply must say, it is striking how we are witnessing a replay of
a few of the very same basic circumstances
that turned the colonists against England.

Does our national chart reflect this rebellion when the chart is cast for 1776?

4/7/07 12:50 PM  
Blogger jm said...

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

And QUADRUPLE NO!!!!

This is not a replay. This is a unique moment in this crazy thing called time!

I have no idea at all about anything. I'm completely whacked out of my mind and there's no more denying it.

Ask everyone if you want any answers! I'm going back to my original self.

4/7/07 1:21 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And YOU!!

You're the crazy one who caught me in my moment of genuine insanity!

4/7/07 1:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I've always loved this holiday!!!!!!!!!

HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!

4/7/07 1:25 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And TO HELL WITH HOWARD ZINN!

Where have any of these experts gotten us? Answer me that. If you can, YOU ARE THE EXPERT!

Hallelujah Lord! Send us someone to follow!

4/7/07 1:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

He's thinking, I think.

4/7/07 1:30 PM  
Blogger jm said...

HALLELUJAH AND JUBILATION!

Now I've really gone and done it. Help me, help me, help me calm down. Help me Lord.

Oh man. These 4ths are it!!

I've gone and done it!

4/7/07 1:34 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Maybe a shot of hard liquor. I'll try that.

Thank you lord.

4/7/07 1:35 PM  
Blogger jm said...

You know. Ever since George Bush got reelected I've been pulled down. I wept in someone's arms that night, and I don't cry much. I sobbed.

I'm not saying it's causally connected, but today is the first time I've really felt my spirits rekindled since then.

4/7/07 8:39 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I like your words, joe.

the model of liberty, responsibility, and justice in equal measure, which our country professes to embody.

I'll go along with that.

4/7/07 8:42 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This is not a replay. This is a unique moment in this crazy thing called time!"

Whoa....Lotsa deja vu, tonight. Saw some cool fireworks, that is. Hot fireworks. Something. Hope y'all had a good time tonight. :-)

4/7/07 9:48 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I'm not saying it's causally connected, but today is the first time I've really felt my spirits rekindled since then."

Well, it's nice to feel better. Something released for you, perhaps.

4/7/07 10:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Kadi!

I had a fantastic time! The heavens thundered with the fireworks, opened up and poured down on my town breaking the 100+ heat. Oh it's glorious! I was just about to comment on this and sort of apologize for my temper tantrum.

This is why I lose it.

Every moment is new. We aren't going back and the attempt to find this pattern will not work. This country fought for her independence as a colony and that's that. she's doing her best, believe it or not. There are too many of us who care. She is just beginning to awaken to her identity. Please give it a minute.
The complaining about the corporations is hypocritical when every single one of us consumes their products with relish. With gluttony.

This is it. Our present reality. It's not that bad. We work always to make it better but until we all see our parts in the play we don't like, we will continue as is.

It just isn't all that bad for most of you. And those who are unfortunate now will get their turn at the wheel.

4/7/07 10:10 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yes. Something most definitely released for me. Still releasing, as a matter of fact.

4/7/07 10:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'll have to see where it all settles. Why this inspiration and how I will connect it to the collective, now that I'm stuck.

4/7/07 10:14 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This whole thing about some sinister crap taking over the country and the world is ridiculous.

Of course there are sinister elements. But they are not organized. believe me.

This release is interesting. There is a reason I've always gotten so jubilant on my country's birthday.

4/7/07 10:19 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The heavens thundered with the fireworks, opened up and poured down on my town breaking the 100+ heat. Oh it's glorious! I was just about to comment on this and sort of apologize for my temper tantrum."

Oh, that sounds lovely. Delicious. It's been quite cool and stormy here, but the rain ceased for the hour of the fireworks displays. At our vantage point by the water in New Jersey tonight, we could see the fireworks shooting up from three different sites (one in New York City and two in New Jersey). The boats blew their horns at intervals.

"The complaining about the corporations is hypocritical when every single one of us consumes their products with relish. With gluttony."

Well, constructive criticism is okay. At the least, it serves to awaken and alert.

Mere complaining without doing something, anything, is a negative use of energy, though. If words aren't backed by constructive action, it all degenerates into little more than an exercise in judgmentalness and divisiveness.

Some of those who listen will choose a different way. There's a creative tension between opposing views, and that creates a field of action, the possibility of conscious choices for those who hear.

Better than to remonstrate is to demonstrate.

"This whole thing about some sinister crap taking over the country and the world is ridiculous."

What? No space lizards? Whew!

4/7/07 11:09 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Space lizards?? It's the Blob!

Yes, of course. constructive criticism. Not that I enjoy it, but I see its value.

I would dearly love to see ethical practices in corporations, and that's within reason.

But first, the fear of the corporate monolith has to go, especially when all these good folks are heavily invested in their mutual funds!

If the good people would simply look at it realistically and understand the vast complicated web that has been woven over man's history to create the present circumstance, and how we are all dependent upon it for survival, progress could be made.

It's fine for Howard Zinn to talk about injustice while he jets around the world adored by his audiences. Fine and dandy. But the people who are really doing something about it go unnoticed. I would like to take the spotlight away from these people to some extent. We know what's wrong. We hear about it ad nauseum. What to do in real terms would be great. The people need to be given tasks.

All systems grow and corrupt. But we keep finding corrections. I think it's time for that.

4/7/07 11:32 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There's a creative tension between opposing views, and that creates a field of action

Very very good point.

4/7/07 11:36 PM  
Blogger jm said...

At the same time I think innovative ideas must be developed for action. It's been proven that the best results in behavior correction are produced by reward, yet this has yet to be made usable. We seem to be stuck in punishment mode as a whole.

So if corporate plundering should be changed, there has to be a greater reward for not doing this.

4/7/07 11:40 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Hmm, I decided to scan some reviews of A Power Governments Cannot Suppress. What can that possibly be? I don't know Zinn, although so far he does not come across as merely an arm chair theorist. He's described as basically an optimist despite the heavy topic and message, an activist who believes that democracy lies in the hands of the people, not in government. One reviewer takes away the message that Americans need to understand that they are, through their own apathy and reluctance to become active, responsible for what is going on but that they can effect change through the slightest of actions.

That doesn't sound too different from what we're saying here. It'd be interesting to see if he has any recommendations.

Personally, I suspect there's no formulaic panacea. I do think that institutions don't evolve unless people evolve first.

And thankfully, people do. Each of us does. A little bit at a time, each day -- that's how it goes, and supposedly that is what's needed, and how it happens. Nothing too dramatic at first. I wonder if watching a leaf grow might seem faster, ha ha!

Nobody knows exactly how things are to work out. The answers are in the process. We're all in the process.

It's a long project. But maybe that's what time is for, and the patience to press onwards.

Well, that rain is just pitter-patting away incessantly, while the thunder rumbles in the distance. I think I'll half-close the window and head for bed, and there "to risk perchance to dream" as the ad in the subway train says.

G'night, m'dears. :-)

5/7/07 12:31 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I wonder if watching a leaf grow might seem faster, ha ha!

Infinitely faster.

Howard's OK. I'm just not impressed. Lots of platitudes. It's kind of a tradition with the political intelligensia, his schtick.

The activism of now is different and will reveal itself soon. That's part of the confusion. The old school lefties are not of the time.

He's described as basically an optimist despite the heavy topic and message, an activist who believes that democracy lies in the hands of the people, not in government.

What these people naively fail to address is that the government IS the people. One and the same
He still pits the people against the government and that's impossible. Very naive. No progress can be made until this simple relationship is learned. The greed of the corps equals the greed of the people. But optimism is nice.

I do think that institutions don't evolve unless people evolve first.

I wish you were in charge.

Good night dear kad. The rain will guide us.

5/7/07 1:19 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I wish you were in charge."

Now, now. :-) That probably wouldn't work, for the same reasons. Then it'll be "Kadimiros's in charge, not us. Whew!" Besides, I'm a product of the overall process, as well, with all its "good" and "bad". That's how I got to be me. On the conscious level, I do get to influence a few kids, and a few developing businesses and businesspersons. On levels beneath ordinary consciousness, many of us, the folks who specialize in creativity especially, affect much more than is realized.

Regarding punishment and reward, not sure that a bigger reward is sufficient, as yet. The biggest rewards may be over some people's heads, above their perceptual range. Weirdly, one of this morning's science articles describes how groups fare on collaborative activities.

"Hauert and co-author Karl Sigmund, a mathematician at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis in Laxenburg, Austria, devised a mathematical model that determines how groups fare when collaborating on an activity. They reasoned that within any such community, there would be three types of individuals: cooperators, who do their fair share and are rewarded for their effort; defectors, who beg off but still benefit from the others' work; and punishers, who penalize the defectors.
     "After running multiple versions of their algorithm, with different variables adjusted in each trial, the researchers discovered that the punishers must dominate to sustain the success of a collective activity. But, ironically, they discovered that the effort--be it cutting carbon emissions or hunting bison--must be voluntary if punishers are to rule the roost.
     "...The researchers detail an oscillating cycle: Some cooperators may emerge from a group of nonparticipants, who increase their bounty relative to the group and make their cooperative practice the norm. Then, the group of cooperators may become dominated by defectors, who ruin everything for everyone. Punishers would be unwelcome when defectors take over, as they would have to police the entire group—at high cost to themselves. But what the algorithm has pointed out is that if punishers become dominant before defectors take over a group, they can ensure long-term cooperation...at least until a new innovation comes along--say, processed food--and the cycle begins anew.
     "...'Essentially, we are looking here at a game between cops and robbers,' says Sigmund. When the activity is compulsory, he explains, the robbers win; when it is optional, the cops win. 'If there is a possibility for being a nonparticipant, then everyone becomes a cop,' he says. Sigmund is now working to see if these theoretical results can be replicated in actual human trials in which students participate in public goods games."


Yesterday, joe's message got me thinking about the evolutionary cycle as symbolized by the arc from Aries to Libra, starting with the hunter-gatherer...and advancing neatly to the Libra society. At the same time, it happens within the individual's own development. An idealized schema, of course. Everything actually happens together, messily, richly. Not to justify any particular choice made, but overall the tensions and cycling will produce a fine product.

If someone asked me how to change the world, that is to say, really make a difference in his lifetime, I'd ask him: Well, what are YOU passionate about? That's your mission. That stuff. Start there.

Critical commentators have to speak about general principles, and hopefully connect them to examples. Still, it seems that the specifics of implementation are up to us, we individuals working alone or with affiliations, to discover.

And here is a new day, and the rain's stopped. What can I make happen today in my own life? Well, I have a couple of pictures in my mind, on my inner to-do list.

5/7/07 9:08 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

And here's a link to the article for any who may be interested:

The Roots Of Punishment
A finding from a theoretical model of cooperative activity reveals that making an enterprise optional also makes it more sustainable

It discusses hunters and mushroom gatherers, so it fit in well with my train of thoughts the other day, as I wondered about the messiness of evolving societies.

5/7/07 9:14 AM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Kadimiros!
This is excellent stuff.
thank you

5/7/07 11:21 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Very very interesting.

I will give this some thought and the underlying message I'm getting is that it really could be time for some real theoretical political work, a feeling I had about the net and the people's forum. The biggest think tank yet.

But underneath the talk, I've always also felt that practical cooperation was being learned with the tremedous diversity we have here. And freedom.

I've known that punishment works, but reward just works a little better. We have to be ready. You're right about that.

The Aries-Libra theory is especially relevant with our USA Mars progression retro in Libra and the Saturn return coming. I'll think about this. It's complex. The Capricorn ascent is part of it, which is where the most cooperation occurs. this is really interesting considering the upcoming transits.

5/7/07 2:43 PM  
Blogger jm said...

as I wondered about the messiness of evolving societies.

In the end I think the evolution comes where one is not looking by natural selection. As we theorize, put into practice, and fail, another underlying sequence is at work ensuring survival.

The messiness is the natural waste product of life.

The overall problem with living is that it's virtually impossible to get a detached perspective. We are in the moment and can't see the overall. Some are better at this than others, but it still is limited.

So all of our systems are based on this limited perception. Maybe expanded consciousness is the only solution.

Guilt and punishment should diminish with evolution as the dwindling of the power of the religious hierarchy continues. This one is deep, but unless this cycle changes we'll have to settle into these painful situations until we evolve as a species.

For example, punishment is behind sickness in individuals. So no health care system will solve the problems until people stop punishing themselves.

As Pluto goes into Capricorn and all the outer planets are in the last quadrant, there should be a step forward.

Aries, the hunter, goes into relationship in Libra, but Libra is the real war monger, as the only way he knows to arrive at peace and agreement. The last of the interpersonal and lessons of sharing, but it can be extremely competetive at the Libra point.

Capricorn is the real societal leap. The cooperation is necessary there as the whole system is now a factor, beyond individual concerns.

All of this is just ahead.

5/7/07 3:00 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

You're welcome, tseka!

5/7/07 3:53 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"it really could be time for some real theoretical political work, a feeling I had about the net and the people's forum. The biggest think tank yet."

Yes, you could be onto something there. Maybe it's already been happening.

Group dynamics and leadership issues crop up. I think of the struggles of open source groups to evolve, and to offer software alternatives. Should we care when they ask us, Why use evil Microsoft products when there are viable free alternatives?

But knowing that there's a bigger game going on (such as the co-evolution of cheaters and altruists) takes us a bit above the fray, out of the pushme-pullyu mode that's so exhausting to the organs of emotion. Then we have more of a hope of having long-term strategic vision.

Maybe some of the more extreme complaining is sourced in the sensed loss of primal unity. Only it's utopia or some other ego ideal. I try not to indulge in a blame game. It's not all that black-and-white to me. This seems to be the right planet; I know I'm not on the planet by accident. I know that it's usually the experience of suffering, or some kind of loss or disappointment that really opens people to their spiritual growth. And as long as there's gain in passing the buck, or in cheating vs. altruism, some will choose to profit unfairly, not to mention the unpredictable factors that mutate things. And then the game gets challenging, comfy static niches are disrupted, and evolution happens.

A friend asked me a question some years ago.

I said the only mental impressions I got was that of small groups of children around the globe communicating with each other. Younger people with little to lose. (Not people, as you know, already successful to some extent, therefore established or otherwise invested. It's quite hard for you or I to radically give up what we already have--and maybe we're not supposed to.) They were like wildflowers, which civilized folks call weeds, sprouting up, the world of tomorrow emerging without fanfare. What if our idea of garden isn't theirs? I wonder if some of the things we care about will largely be foreign to them. Not a very dramatic answer, I know, and I suppose people would think it's not enough.

"Maybe expanded consciousness is the only solution. Guilt and punishment should diminish with evolution as the dwindling of the power of the religious hierarchy continues."

Yes, I think so. Disappointment with the insufficiency of older formulations of religion will continue to increase. They're on the down cycle, or soon will be. Basically, people need the consequences, "good" and "bad", of their expectations and thought patterns. When they realize that a lot of the "us vs. them" is seeded in their own minds, then they may question deeper and come to the realizations of expanded consciousness.

I could tell some of my clients, Don't be like that, it'll cause problems. But I would only annoy them and they would do it anyway, expecting a successful result. After all, it's worked before for them, and the costs have been acceptable to them or unrecognized thus far. The opportune moment for me is when they're licking their wounds, saying "Why me?" Then I can say, Okay, nevermind the "why me". "Why me" will only stop you from getting to the "why". This is why, and maybe there's another way to meet your objectives, yes?

"The last of the interpersonal and lessons of sharing, but it can be extremely competetive at the Libra point."

The testosterone article is kind of interesting.

5/7/07 3:54 PM  
Blogger jm said...

But knowing that there's a bigger game going on (such as the co-evolution of cheaters and altruists) takes us a bit above the fray, out of the pushme-pullyu mode that's so exhausting to the organs of emotion.

Beautifully said. The "organs of emotion". Resulting in glandular malfunction and disease.

Basically, people need the consequences, "good" and "bad", of their expectations and thought patterns. When they realize that a lot of the "us vs. them" is seeded in their own minds, then they may question deeper and come to the realizations of expanded consciousness.

This is most important. We'll have to wait for evolution. As soon as one strike against the perceived enemy is commited, a return is forthcoming. Neverending. Yet, the "enemy within" has always been known by man. The understanding will emerge eventually.

I could tell some of my clients, Don't be like that, it'll cause problems. But I would only annoy them and they would do it anyway, expecting a successful result.

This is part of the reward technique. reinforce good behavior. "Don't" is surely an invitation to "do".

What people need most of all is to be left to experience the consequences of their actions and then desire to do good will be real. The only path to genuine long lasting success. Desire.

On to the article, speaking of desire. looks good.

5/7/07 4:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Fantastic article, kadimiros! Wonderful. Might have to do a blog entry.

I'm going to put this together with some other ideas. Now, what is the source of violence then? One theory I read correlated it with the predatory insctinct gone elsewhere when hunting practices morphed into agricultural.

And my age old thoughts are surfacing about the decrease in reproductive activity eventually in the human race.

5/7/07 4:33 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Is Libra a polite Aries, as some say? The group values may be highly determinative of the form taken by social dominance, as the article on testosterone suggests. And I think this ties back to the opening post's message calling for compassion and generosity, where the individual's values are implicated.

I was reading an article about a language called Pirahã. "Are we only capable of creating thoughts for which words exist?" A caption asked. Or is culture more determinant?

There is a language without "ifs", "ands", "buts", abstract terms for color (they use light and dark, or descriptive phrases) or numbers, and that barely acknowledges the notion of time. It is so rich in tone, stress, and syllabic length that its paltry set of eight consonants and four vowels are optional; conversations can be conducted purely by singing tones, humming or whistling. Linguists debate fiercely over its lack of recursive structures; its existence threatens to topple revered theory.

It is spoken by an intelligent people incapable of counting, who have no words for "left" nor "right", yet whose competency for survival in the Amazonian wild is unmatched by any other group, and whose culture is firmly rooted in living (only) in the here and now.

Unlike other cultures, they have no myth of creation, and no need for them. They explain, "Nobody made these things. Everything is the same. Things always are."

They are ultimate empiricists, requiring evidence for claims. With a culture that values non-coercion (no telling others what to do), with little thought of the future and little need to explain the past, they are completely immune to religious proselytization. Indeed, they precipitated one missionary's loss of faith, converting him to a more empirical worldview. Well, what color is Jesus? How tall is he? What did he tell you when he came back from the dead? Did someone you know see him? Well, if you have never seen him, then why are you telling us this? We understand that you want us to do these things, but we do not want to live like you.

Hunters and gatherers, as if living in the eternal now of edenic consciousness, they were still capable of plotting the murder of the missionary when promised a reward of whiskey.

The missionary turned linguist explained about the cultural values: "They wouldn't find the Pope remotely impressive; they would find his clothes very impractical, and they would find it very funny. I took a Pirahã to Brasilia, the capital of Brazil, for health reasons once, to go to a hospital, and I took him to the Presidential Palace. As the president of Brazil was coming out, there was all this fanfare and I said, That's the chief of all Brazilians. Uh huh. Can we go eat now? He was totally uninterested; the whole concept just sounds silly to them.
     "The first time I took a Pirahã on an airplane, I got a similar reaction. I was flying a man out for health reasons; he had a niece who needed surgery and he was accompanying her. We're flying above the clouds, and I know that he's never seen clouds from the top before, so I point down and I say, those are clouds down there. Uh huh. He was completely uninterested; he acted like he flew in planes every day. The Pirahã are not that curious about what we have. They haven't shown interest in a number of things that other indigenous groups, even Amazonian groups, that have come out and had contact with in civilization for the first time are curious about. The Pirahã have been in regular contact for a couple of hundred years now, and they have assimilated almost nothing. It's very unusual.
     "The reason that I believe that the Pirahã are like this is because of the strong cultural values that they have--a series of cultural values. One principle is immediacy of experience; they aren't interested in things if they don't know the history behind them. If they haven't seen it done. But there's also just a strong conservative core to the culture; they don't change, and they don't change the environment around them much either. They don't make canoes. They live on the river, and they depend on canoes for their daily existence--someone's always fishing, someone's always crossing the river to hunt and gather--but they don't make canoes. If there are no Brazilian canoes, they'll take the bark off a tree and just sit in that and paddle across. And that's only good for one or two uses."

6/7/07 7:06 AM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Kadimiros this is one of the most fascinating articles i have read in a long while.

I require some time to sit with it, contemplate the implications.

Also thank you for returning Edge to my life. It was lost with bookmarks when a laptop died and i have missed it without realizing it was gone.

I have never been completely comfortable with the concept of Universal Grammar. Raised where i was, a people used tones to "sing" a spirit into being that resided in a cedar tree. The harmonizing of a tone to match the canoe spirit within the tree to bring her into present, but she already exists don't you see? Yes, i could and sometime i could hear her as well and that certainly did not match with anything in my dominant culture.

In the end it pleases me to know so little.

6/7/07 9:24 AM  
Blogger jm said...

This is absolutly stunning.

I'm going to absorb fully. Thank you so so so much kad and tseka.

6/7/07 1:33 PM  
Blogger jm said...

but they don't make canoes. If there are no Brazilian canoes, they'll take the bark off a tree and just sit in that and paddle across. And that's only good for one or two uses."

This is interesting. It makes me wonder about all the excessive work in the rest of the world. Focusing on tasks actually disconnects a person from the world at large and could even make one more vulnerable. More and more work, bigger and stronger protective dwellings, more food for protection, more sedentary, excessive weight, more vulnerability, guns, bombs, on and on.

Maybe doing less is better.

6/7/07 2:50 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

I was thinking of your comments about cancer-music jm. Gardening had always been a dance for me to rhythms i feel and hear from the elements.

Many things called work do not seem so to me. Pleasure. Cultivating, caring, chopping wood, washing windows, rocking babies, all sensuous pleasures.

Maybe we need more cancer music to re-awaken the root?

Dis-chord we have to much already.
I am still thinking about the power of joined elements.

6/7/07 4:48 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

tseka wrote, "In the end it pleases me to know so little."

The infinite richness of being. The Pirahã language and consciousness would definitely have broadened our university linguistics class. In those college days, I had read metaphysical literature that asserted that ancient, ancient, ancient humans were like this in certain respects, though with more expanded psyches, back when linear time, and the accompanying tendencies to fears and to artificially heightened forms of guilt, had not yet dimmed the human spirit. The gap between my private studies and the culturally approved teachings loomed enormously, difficult to reconcile.

"The harmonizing of a tone to match the canoe spirit within the tree to bring her into present, but she already exists don't you see? Yes, i could and sometime i could hear her as well and that certainly did not match with anything in my dominant culture."

Harmonizing with nature is crucial; she is a part of us and vice versa. I imagine that to distort her forms, we do it within our own energies on some level. If the change is on the whole detrimental to her rather than an enhancement, it may well be that we are also harming ourselves in some unrecognized way.

I spent a day upstate this weekend. My sister was helping to landscape design the grounds of a working psychic. We were looking at elevation maps and talking of plants. I warned about invasive plants commonly sold for gardens.

It was interesting to see how each person had his or her own way of evaluating the territory and deciding on the best approach. The psychic said that unlike us, she could not see how things would look with her eyes still open. She could only do it with her eyes closed.

Choosing between two alternative paths for a walkway between the house and a central clearing, for example. At one point, she marched along one of the proposed paths, as if walking along an imaginary walkway. At the edge of the clearing, she paused, then finally announced, Well! That doesn't feel right. I had done it mentally; I grinned at her process from my vantage point standing on the porch, and pointed the other way, agreeing, That way is better. Upon being informed, my sister only casually remarked that it is more natural for people to make a clockwise turn.

At another point, the discussion centered around a proposed extra driveway. My sister argued that it should be screened off by plants for aesthetic reasons. All of her other, excellent, recommendations had been well received. However, I immediately thought that there was something important about keeping the line of sight open; something wanted to pass freely. The psychic hesitated and declared that she felt unsure about the treatment of the proposed driveway. Curiously, my sister seemed not to appreciate the heightened level of concern, and simply pressed on with her reasoning. So, that may be a point we'll have to revisit on review.

Afterwards, we spent some quality time feeding apples and hay to the horses and the donkey.

jm wrote, "Maybe doing less is better."

Yogis often seem to think so. Yes, it can be, especially for our culture which has gone so far in the direction of doing more. I suppose that everyone has his own optimal balance, tuned to his goals and soul mission. Early on, experience and challenges are important to growth -- it's good to stretch oneself see what that's like. It helps some people to consciously identify a muscle by first flexing it, and tensing it. Then, they can relax it even more than usual, whereas merely telling them to completely relax might elicit only a puzzled expression. The habitual state can become invisible to awareness.

It's a fascinating read. The Pirahã people (who call themselves Hi'aiti'ihi, "the straight ones") have developed in a very different direction than our hierarchical societies. Even the kinship structure is extremely simplified. I do not think they are the same, but I do wonder if our most ancient, ancient, ancient ancestors really were a bit like this in a few respects.

As you know, I have a pet schema that hierarchical relationships are connected with the third chakra of world identity and self-confidence at the solar plexus, linked esoterically to the Sun. The lower two chakras are of individual survival and the basic levels of give-and-take relationships. For me, their planets, Mars and Mercury, suggest the hunter/gatherer and the beginnings of trade and commerce.

Interestingly, the Pirahã people do know how to barter with neighboring peoples, but they suspect they are often cheated because of their inability to count. This is not to say that the Pirahã are underdeveloped in the solar plexus. But lacking in our forms of coercion, it must be differently manifested than in our cultures.

So that's one possible manifestation of the arc from the ruler of Aries to Gemini to Leo. After that comes Venus/Libra, because government must be informed by love and compassion; the problems of one level of consciousness are resolved with the help of levels higher than it.

Some have said that Libra can be like a polite Aries. We can play a little more with the symbols of Aries and Libra, and the testosterone connection to round out the picture with more (Libran?) justice.

Checking one of the popular science magazines, I read that other recent studies on testosterone show that men with higher levels of it are more likely to insist on receiving a fair deal when negotiating: They are more likely to turn down low offers, even if they stand to profit by them. You have to be very careful to be fair when dealing with such individuals, a researcher warned.

Not only that but, interestingly, they are also more prone to offering fair deals.

That reminds me that, although we worry about the baser manifestations of aggression, there are important higher aspects of the masculine side of subtle energies in esoteric lore. Perhaps they are connected with centers in the left brain hemisphere.

6/7/07 5:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I am still thinking about the power of joined elements.

I'm actually interested in experiencing this first-hand.

6/7/07 5:12 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Cultivating, caring, chopping wood, washing windows, rocking babies, all sensuous pleasures."

Well, I am still mastering washing of dishes. (I've gotten it down so far to only two dirty dishes in the sink.) But godbabies have been an unqualified delight.

I have poked fun at "child-free" (read child-averse) friends when they asked how my day went. Oh, it went well! The baby only regurgitated twice on me. LOL!

6/7/07 5:14 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The Pirahã people (who call themselves Hi'aiti'ihi, 'the straight ones')...."

By the way, they would call us by a pejorative term, "the crooked heads". :-) Interesting perspective.

6/7/07 5:18 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Link to article, "Hormones affect men's sense of fair play".

This, he says, is in line with the idea from primate studies that found high testosterone males sometimes play a "magnanimous and peacekeeping" role.

6/7/07 5:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

What a civilized afternoon kad!

First of all, it's hard to make any real assumptions about the Piraha from this one article. The complexities of all societies are unfathomable, so I would guess these people are more complicated than what's been said so far. Definitely worth studying.

Many tribes have substance abuse going on and their desire for whiskey is suspect.

The lower two chakras are of individual survival and the basic levels of give-and-take relationships. For me, their planets, Mars and Mercury, suggest the hunter/gatherer and the beginnings of trade and commerce.

I might agree. The baser elements of commodity exchange, always there, go along with this. I am going to give it some thought in terms of the Piraha barter and respond. It's interesting.

6/7/07 5:46 PM  
Blogger jm said...

On the Cancer-music-world needing more?

I don't know.

They seem to be OK as long as they have their food. They're chewing all the time so they can't really hear too well.
So I can't tell if they need more music or not.
It could help, though.

The question is, "Do I need more music?"

That one hasn't been answered definitively as yet.

6/7/07 5:47 PM  
Blogger jm said...

high testosterone males sometimes play a "magnanimous and peacekeeping" role.

THIS is fabulous.
Of course. Leadership.

There is a short volume that needs to be written on this if possible. Soon would be great. The Aries-Libra-testosterone-aggression-male-peacekeeping puzzle.

I have a Mars in Libra, as do tseka and joe.

Give me a second.

6/7/07 5:54 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"There is a short volume that needs to be written on this if possible."

Well, you are the astrologer. I don't have the background to articulate and explore it fully.

"Give me a second."

? Oh, you mean to begin in a second. My bad. :-)

6/7/07 5:54 PM  
Blogger jm said...

No. A second to figure it out. A sizable second.

6/7/07 5:56 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The illuminating information you've presented on testosterone is very interesting.

The thing I'm interested in from here are the other androgens and how they figure in to the total male survival mechanism.

Survival depends on many things. Brute strength, cunning, aggression, submission, and so on. That's why this intrigues me, since I've never perceived men as necessarily combative. Not at all. So the fact that it could be learned behavior is part of my interest. It means, then, survival skills
that are missing can be learned and they would probably raise the androgen level.

Mars is supposed to be the most concentrated potency, and self defense could be the primary concern. Strength is held to the self. How this connects with Libra is what does really require some thought. How the deal comes down. Like your testosterone dealer above.

I do know that I've found men easier to get along with by and large, and I wonder if this has something to do with it. Or the fact that my father had Mars in Libra, and my brother and sister still do.

We get along.

So what exactly does Libra do to the Mars placed there? What happens to the testosterone?

6/7/07 6:12 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It's very very interesting.

The testosterone is apparently used for negotiation as survival in Libra as part of the mix. Language has been developed in Gemini after primitive Aries and Taurus. The Meism of leo is past. And a new half of the wheel is being entered.

So with the USA Mars in Libra indefinitely and Saturn coming, this becomes even more intriguing.

6/7/07 6:19 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"No. A second to figure it out. A sizable second."

Well, that's still pretty good. Incubation takes longer for me.

Speaking of Mars, I'm amused to find that actor Jim Carrey also has Sun, Venus and Mars in Capricorn, as he is but nine days younger than I. We both have Mercury and Jupiter in Aquarius.

Whereas I have Mercury conjunct Saturn and Jupiter conjunct the Moon all in Aquarius, in his chart Saturn conjuncts the Capricorn Sun and Jupiter conjuncts Aquarian Mercury. Also, he has Uranus in Leo and the Moon in Virgo, whereas I have them in Virgo and Aquarius.

6/7/07 6:31 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Spatial reasoning is also associated with testosterone levels. The higher the level the better the ability. Up to a certain point. And most of what i have read will make emphasize this -up to a certain point.

Women who have high testosterone levels score higher on spatial reasoning. (i have higher than normal testosterone levels so had some interest) This is from memory of poking around a few years ago. There was some speculation that this higher level may have functioned in the "scout" the one who could travel long distances.

So Mars in Libra. I have this too.
It would be interesting to look at, swab a few mouths and see what astrology turns up.

6/7/07 6:36 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"So with the USA Mars in Libra indefinitely and Saturn coming, this becomes even more intriguing."

Ah, it's an interesting combination. Mars in the service of Venus, or Libran ideals, must be a critical learning experience. How to serve peace and balance without causing great disruption through one's actions.

6/7/07 6:41 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

hmmm work hard at being fair to attain higher status???

6/7/07 6:51 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Well you and Jim are not a match.

LOL!!!!

It would be interesting to look at, swab a few mouths and see what astrology turns up.

What a thought!!
Calling all Marses in Libra! Brush your teeth first!

There was some speculation that this higher level may have functioned in the "scout" the one who could travel long distances.

Yes yes yes.
This is one of Aries' main jobs. And that's why he stays ahead of the pack. So he can see the whole space unobstructed. This in turn must develop the brain.

So how does he keep this open view within the Libra give and take? Where does the Libra stand so as not to interfere. Mars has to see ahead. woooh.

Maybe he is coming in from the wilderness with his eye keenly trained there just in case.

6/7/07 6:57 PM  
Blogger jm said...

hmmm work hard at being fair to attain higher status???

Hoho! That gets a laugh.

How to serve peace and balance without causing great disruption through one's actions.

Impossible.
Maybe not frequently but "great disruption" is the phrase. Exactly.
And why not?

6/7/07 7:00 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Well you and Jim are not a match."

Definitely not! Acting was a past life for me, and I've no need to reprise it. And astrology doesn't have the fine resolution to tell us everything. You can never tell from a chart whether it's of a man, a woman, a tree or a building.

6/7/07 7:04 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Impossible."

Well, sometimes there has to be some disruption in the attempt to balance. Mars is symbolic of surgeons, as well as of athletes and warrior types.

6/7/07 7:06 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

From the same article was this little gem.
Previous studies have found that other hormones can influence economic decisions. Researchers recently reported that a whiff of the hormone oxytocin can make someone more willing to invest their money in an anonymous trustee.

Oxytocin is the natural hormone in women that stimulates contractions in childbirth.

It boggles the mind....

6/7/07 7:10 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Mars is active desire and there is no entity that desires relationship more than Mars in Libra. She also desires the exit just as much. She tries with all her might to get out and can't.

I think this creates a dynamic tension of usable energy. Mars can stay in potential, so maybe Libra Keeps it flowing in an endless back and forth. Friction, spark. AC DC.

But do we go mental with Libra or physical with Aries?

Anyone?

6/7/07 7:10 PM  
Blogger jm said...

You can never tell from a chart whether it's of a man, a woman, a tree or a building.

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

6/7/07 7:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Researchers recently reported that a whiff of the hormone oxytocin can make someone more willing to invest their money in an anonymous trustee.

Oooohhhhh. Woweeeeee.

This is it, tseka. Why I think hormones are a large part of the key, if not THE key to what's going on.

Oxytocin is one powerful mother! The bonding glue. I didn't know this. It's supposed to be aroused by female group bonding.

That is amazing. The money. Whoa. That's how important trust is to life. At least at first. What happens later?

6/7/07 7:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

You can never tell from a chart whether it's of a man, a woman, a tree or a building.

Not important.

6/7/07 7:19 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"So how does he keep this open view within the Libra give and take?"

Maybe a higher level of operation. New mental and intellectual territories for Mars, if balance and discriminating fairly are goals.

The Aries, fire, is ruled by Mars. Mars is fiery, yet it has some earthy quality, too. Mars rules the first chakra connected with Earth.

That has some logic because the base chakra deals with survival concerns and individual identity issues. To me, its vibrational pattern is like a concentrated point within the spinal base, somewhat like gravity.

Libra, is of air, ruled by Venus. Venus is also associated with the heart chakra, and that chakra is in turn associated with the concerns and issues of elemental air. To me, the vibration of the heart can feel like the boundaries of the self are expanding spherically in all spatial directions as if (potentially) to include everything.

6/7/07 7:19 PM  
Blogger jm said...

New mental and intellectual territories for Mars

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly.

6/7/07 7:20 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Not important."

LOL! Yes, not always important. But, well, functionally and experientially, there are going to be some significant differences. But that's another big topic.

6/7/07 7:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Still, Mars has to dominate. At least at first. Maybe as he travels the new mental territory his need for physical dominance atrophies, to some extent.

6/7/07 7:24 PM  
Blogger jm said...

functionally and experientially, there are going to be some significant differences. But that's another big topic.

Very big. But no badmouthing my trees!

6/7/07 7:25 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Well, the identification has shifted by the time we get to Libra.

An analogy might be a soldier who has extended his Martian self-concerns to that of the national identity. He may even sacrifice his physical self for the sake of the larger group identity. Is this form of "altruism" a kind of projection of the Mars consciousness taken to its maximal limit, 180 degrees away from the beginning point? Are there yet higher forms of altruism where Mars plays a more subordinate role? Not to speak of any particular soldier, of course.

6/7/07 7:29 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"...the larger group identity" -- and its ideals, of course.

6/7/07 7:31 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I think this creates a dynamic tension of usable energy."

That's a very interesting way to look at things! Would Mars want to map the territory, and establish clear boundaries and roles?

6/7/07 7:36 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Well, the identification has shifted by the time we get to Libra.

True. We're always prepared, aren't we?

He may even sacrifice his physical self for the sake of the larger group identity. Is this form of "altruism" a kind of projection of the Mars consciousness taken to its maximal limit, 180 degrees away from the beginning point?

This might happen more in Capricorn. I don't think Mars in Libra will lay down his life for the group. Maybe for an ideal, or justice. He really hasn't gotten to the group yet. He is just learning, I think, that his survival seriously depends on "some" other.
Good thought.

I wouldn't call it altruism. I think it might be survival of something beyond his physical self, but still benefiting him in some way.

6/7/07 7:42 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Mars want to map the territory, and establish clear boundaries and roles?

Mapping is most of it, I think. The lay of the land. He must know his territory. Maybe libra is the boundary definition.

I think Mars is interested still in his own role primarily. He wants to know how to maintain his identity/integrity as he discovers the other and then goes on to the larger group.

6/7/07 7:47 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Maybe for an ideal, or justice. He really hasn't gotten to the group yet. He is just learning, I think, that his survival seriously depends on "some" other. Good thought."

Okay, then, maybe for the ideals with which he has somehow begun to identify with himself. From idealized ego to the ego's ideals. And ideals are rather like goals to achieve. Ego ideals are elusive, though.

6/7/07 8:02 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Okay, then, maybe for the ideals with which he has somehow begun to identify with himself. From idealized ego to the ego's ideals.

Yes! I like it.

Ego ideals are elusive, though.

Not if you have a Saturn in Leo.

6/7/07 8:19 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Maybe i did this wrong...
In the progressed USA chart Venus is in Aries so it would seem that we have a lot of shifting back and forth between masculine and feminine attributes and a blurring of them.

6/7/07 8:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Hey!! Really! Great information to go with the Mars progression. Mutual reception. This adds dimension.

The blurring will increase I bet. And Pelosi, the Aries arrived.

This is very interesting. Maybe I will be musical. One woman show. Venus in Aries? Money gone? Survival?

Excellent.

6/7/07 9:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

That really popped a spark in me. Wow. Hmmmm.

6/7/07 9:18 PM  
Blogger jm said...

My own progressed Saturn is at 29 Leo. Going to be there for some time.
Moon in Aquarius. Capricorn next, with the Pluto entrance. Hmmmm. Square Mars. Hmmm. Survival. Hmmm. 10th house. Hmmm.

6/7/07 9:29 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Very very interesting tseka. I'm surprised this hasn't been noticed. Leave it to you.

16 d Aries, Mars is 18. They will be together for some time. Venus in the 4th awakening the original American pioneering woman. Uranus be there by transit really getting it up. Jupiter will be passing by. War will be ending. Mars in libra in the 10th.
Hmmmmmm.

Certainly relates to our testosterone discussion.

6/7/07 9:57 PM  

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