Tuesday, August 07, 2007

Art

Art: artis -- skill
An aesthetically pleasing [?] and meaningful [?] arrangement of elements, such as words, sounds, colors, shapes, etc.
One thing I've noticed about some Geminis is their talent for experiencing the world around them without excessive criticism. People judge the sensory input to varying degrees and what pleases or disgusts is usually subjective, although there are universals, especially when it comes to the sense of smell. So the age old question about the quality and value of so-called "art" is always up for further questioning.
When I hear a piece of lousy pop music with strangled shrieking singers, I recoil, but sometimes my Gemini friends hear another part or at least sense it's value to society in some way. It always amazes me how objective they can be not rushing immediately for some personal verification or sentimental identification. They seem to have a built-in mechanism that prevents rejection since there is too much to learn. Years ago when I traveled alone across America I met an artist in the midwest who took me to his studio. One of his pieces was an ironing board covered with astroturf and on it was a golf shoe. It was charming, funny, and unforgettable. I fell in love with the sculpture and the creator.
I came across this sculpture last night and responded with a great deal of pleasure. A lot of contemporary art leaves me unexcited, and I was thinking about what makes the difference. There was no question about this piece, and I have no idea at all what the artist is trying to say. So much for literal meaning. Pleasing aesthetically? Must be. I know if I saw it in exhibition I would linger and absorb the experience. I would stand back at various distances to get different perspectives. I would look at it from all angles. What makes this happen? Memory and recognition? Future longings? How can substances be juxtaposed to create something that resonates and can be completely not understood in intellectual terms. Or defy usual aesthetic guidelines. What is an artsist? Is the value always subjective piece by piece? I suppose the fact that they exist in society to take the usual and re-create it to expand the ordinary limits of our experience could be the aim and the details matter not. But who the heck can assume the label justifiably? Artist.
Leg with candle. Robert Gober

168 Comments:

Blogger jm said...

Here we go!
You know the musician- inventor, Les Paul, who created the famous guitar:
From my paper today:

Where did that curiosity come from?

I guess I was just born that way. That curiosity was there no matter whether it was the light switch or something else. I was always curious about what made a plank of wood have a resonance and tone to it. I was always curious, always interested in improving something if it didn't do everything I though it should do

Birth sign anyone?? Correct. Gemini.

7/8/07 4:41 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Also interesting that he was pictured on the front page of the arts' section just as Mars gets to Gem.

It's amazing too. Bombs and murder. Music and invention. All together. He's working on the perfect hearing aid now. He just turned 92.

NN and Uranus conjunct in Aquarius.

7/8/07 4:50 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

As a Gemini I'm fond of arguing the opposing point of view. This sometimes drives my wife crazy! I have to remind her when I'm arguing with her that I'm merely exposing the logic of the other side (while actually agreeing with her), usually to try to moderate her overreaction to something. (She is a Scorpio BTW with a very definite ability to sting). I love doing this, and I do it even if no one else is around with ideas in my head. Occasionally I even change my own thinking once I've successfully argued the other point of view. With a few exceptions, I usually find it unnecessary and unproductive to hold a firm belief in anything. I like the Discordian view:

All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.


Some people interpret this fluidity with opposing points of view as deception or worse, but I think many of us Geminis are comfortable seeing many sides simultaneously.

7/8/07 4:55 PM  
Blogger jm said...

have to remind her when I'm arguing with her that I'm merely exposing the logic of the other side (while actually agreeing with her), usually to try to moderate her overreaction to something.

This is amazing. It's hard to imagine this emotional objectivity and it verifies my theory. One of the reasons I find Geminis so entertaining, and for me, easy to get along with. It certainly helps with a Scorpio in the house!

LOL. The Discordian view. Perfect description of the way things really are.
Wonderful.

Some people interpret this fluidity with opposing points of view as deception or worse, but I think many of us Geminis are comfortable seeing many sides simultaneously.

This is also interesting since many people accuse Gems of dishonesty, which I never have. They call it noncommital. This explains it perfectly.

7/8/07 5:32 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Occasionally I even change my own thinking once I've successfully argued the other point of view.

What a great idea. I wonder how many people would find this next to impossible? If they followed through they would probably come to the same result sometimes and loosen up thinking patterns. How creative.

We so often get a visceral reaction and rush to defend ourselves when disagreed with. A reaction beyond the fact of the matter. I wonder why some of us cling to our viewpoints with such emotion? Just because someone doesn't agree doesn't mean the viewpoint is threatened either. I suppose it's the way it's expressed.

I mean if someone says, "You nincompoop idiot! Moronic dumbhead! You're wrong!", then an unpleasant reaction could conceivably follow.

7/8/07 5:46 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

I mean if someone says, "You nincompoop idiot! Moronic dumbhead! You're wrong!", then an unpleasant reaction could conceivably follow.

Non! really???

You crack me up.

M.P.K. love you thoughts.

I have a big thing for the way Geminis think too. My best buddy, sparing partner from high school used is a Gem, she and i used to swap sides all the time. We remain close in spite of really different life paths. And we still complete each other's sentences.

7/8/07 6:03 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

But who the heck can assume the label justifiably? Artist.

Great question.
I kinda like Justice Potter Stewart's famous response to what is obscenity (or was that pornography)? That he could not define it but he knew it when he saw it.

For me it boils down to inspiration - intake of air - that gasp of delight, a bubble under the sternum it is physical, emotional, mental, completely taken for a moment before the rational mind has a chance to get in and muddle.

7/8/07 6:11 PM  
Blogger kj said...

What makes this happen? Memory and recognition? Future longings? How can substances be juxtaposed to create something that resonates and can be completely not understood in intellectual terms. Or defy usual aesthetic guidelines. What is an artsist? Is the value always subjective piece by piece?

When reading the sentence: What is an artist? the first thought that came in reply was: "What is human?"

For me, art is entirely subjective. Whether another person or whether no other person feels the same way I do when experiencing a creation, that is fine, I wouldn't expect anyone to see, feel, hear, experience what I do.

That some art seems to tap into something collective, well, again I think that is subjective, maybe to the times, maybe to similar connections formed in the brain, or similar experiences, or ways of thinking, etc., etc. to forever.

7/8/07 6:14 PM  
Blogger kj said...

But who the heck can assume the label justifiably? Artist.

Anyone, any age, that takes an experience and plays with it, I think can assume the label. :-)

7/8/07 6:18 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Creating art isn't rote. Learning art can be can be taught by rote, and often is. And even if piece of art is begin with rote, the creation, the final product, won't be. The connections it took to form the piece will be unique and non-repeatable, even if the method is as old as the hills.

7/8/07 6:21 PM  
Blogger kj said...

I've been so cramped in today, this house, the boxes, endless. @;-) Finally, something to think and talk about.

Fluid points of view, yes. Whenever my view gets fixed, and it does, often, I know I'm stuck. And that's a bummer, because I'd rather see something, anything, than a brick wall, even if it's a brick wall of my own making. If that's Gemini, then I'm happy it's my ASC!

7/8/07 6:24 PM  
Blogger kj said...

nod calls. good night.

7/8/07 6:58 PM  
Anonymous Elena said...

ah Geminis. Can't live with em, and you can't shut em up. I can't seem to get away from those people. Most of the people I have befriended over time have been gems. I like them and I hate them. That "I can change views all the time and my personality can stand that without splitting, is cute for a while because it keeps you on your toes mentally. BUT. Many Gems are callous in their comments, and frivolous with the scathing words. No sense of responsibility, or obligation, they can take many sides, but never put themselves in another shoes. Too emotional. too muddled. too blah.
As far as art, well a Gemini teacher I had was the one who introduced me to it, and I HATED it. What does it do? what does it mean? My Virgo head was about to explode. It just didn't compute. Then one day I read an essay by Kristine Stiles about Fluxus, and tadaaaa...art as spiritual reverence for the world, a great metaphor, the something "more," the sublime..etc. If you could find that essay I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

7/8/07 7:50 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

I've always admired and even at times envied Geminis for their mental flexibility and oratory skills. I don't think I've met one yet who doesn't possess the gift of Gab in a meaningful way, especially those with Moons in sympathetic water signs.

m.p.k., I have quite an affinity for Scorpios, but there's really no joking with them, at least not without receiving a good dose of sarcasm in return. I've hit a wall there more than a few times. With Geminis, though, I never seem to have to worry about anything being taken the wrong way. If anything, there are things that I've said to Geminians that I've realized a split-second later could be taken really badly, but were interpreted entirely differently. I kinda like that. ;-)

7/8/07 8:32 PM  
Anonymous chrispito said...

I had a great imagination as a child. Multiple universes, imaginary friends, you name it, I had it. I had a friend named Lorelei, and we had an imaginary world we shared.
We used to play that we were gorillas; we could make an ape-like sound with our throats that allowed us to go in and out of character. Then I got my tonsils yanked after serial-tonsilitis (how Taurean of me!).
I was unable to make the ape voice over that and Lorelei was p-i-s-s-e-d! She accused me of faking it...
And I still have the angry 4 page letter she wrote me when I was 12 lamenting my moving on in childhood and leaving my childish imagination behind.

It's taken me the last ten years to get my imagination back--to feel that it is okay to be free to create. For the sake of creation! I grew up too fast, and now I am gaining my childhood back. I'm not repeating anything, though.

I can relate to your head explosion, Elena, but for me it relates to being forced to grow up and a self that insisted on being old before my time.

7/8/07 8:40 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense."

That's pretty good. Yes, very likeable. I suppose it could have stopped where the third comma is and still have covered it all, but the length is entertaining and adds something.

7/8/07 8:42 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"That some art seems to tap into something collective, well, again I think that is subjective, maybe to the times, maybe to similar connections formed in the brain, or similar experiences, or ways of thinking, etc., etc. to forever."

I can see art as always renewing itself, finding new expressions, and changing with -- and responsive to -- the times. Kind of like life. It's not a finished, completed endeavor in that sense. That's kind of a very good thing, I think.

7/8/07 8:57 PM  
Blogger jm said...

For me it boils down to inspiration - intake of air - that gasp of delight, a bubble under the sternum it is physical, emotional, mental, completely taken for a moment before the rational mind has a chance to get in and muddle.

"A bubble under the sternum." Great one. The rational mind sure does muck it up!

7/8/07 9:40 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The Discordian view. Perfect description of the way things really are."

Representing the trickster archetype. :-) Good to see some of that creative energy in this thread.

I was just thinking earlier today about proto-Discordian babies. Must have been the talk about puzzling babies, digestion, or something.

7/8/07 9:43 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Most of the people I have befriended over time have been gems.

Me too. And Aquarians.

OMG!! Elena! I just learned about Fluxus last night! I'll see what I can find. Fascinating.

If anything, there are things that I've said to Geminians that I've realized a split-second later could be taken really badly, but were interpreted entirely differently. I kinda like that.

I love it. We're off the hook with them. No eggshells!

7/8/07 9:45 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The connections it took to form the piece will be unique and non-repeatable, even if the method is as old as the hills.

Isn't everything like this? Is life art?

What a story chrispito.

I suppose it could have stopped where the third comma is and still have covered it all, but the length is entertaining and adds something.

Very good point. I thoroughly enjoyed that paragraph. Very musical. A patois of fact!

7/8/07 9:49 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Good to see some of that creative energy in this thread.


Yes indeed. The Discordians are about just as Mars enters Gemini. I think Gemini is one of the most creative energies of all. The 3. The mixing of puzzle parts with no intention of really putting it together finally.

The trickster. Mercury. Gemini. Discordian. Yeaaay!

7/8/07 9:54 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Isn't everything like this? Is life art?"

LOL...I have to tell my sister this. When complimented, she's often enough said that her masterpieces of cooking are unreplicable. She just makes it up as she goes, and she doesn't write down the recipe. So, it's Art! :-)

I think her exquisite sense of smell and precise motor skills have something to do with it.

7/8/07 9:55 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

As well as her willingness to experiment!

7/8/07 9:56 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Everything can be done artistically. Sometimes I think it's a question of reverence.

My major goal in my life is to live like a work of art.

7/8/07 9:57 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The Discordians are about just as Mars enters Gemini."

Aha! I hadn't thought of that. Very interesting! What an excellent combo.

7/8/07 9:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

My life as my masterpiece.

7/8/07 9:58 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"My major goal in my life is to live like a work of art."

Ahem. You've been succeeding.

7/8/07 9:59 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And the Trickster connection. It's just getting started. I could talk endlessly on the Trickster. Love him/her. Tell me more.

7/8/07 9:59 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Kadimiros. Thank you. What a compliment. You are so fine.

7/8/07 10:00 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

What follows is a big mess, but I wanted to get it out there for you guys to play with since I can't seem to knead it into a more succinct shape yet...


Perhaps is that my Gemini sun is conjunct Saturn, but my mental gymnastics have been in reference to some repeating structure. I'm thinking of the lattice the random links. I do the same things over and over but never the same way twice. I add a random link. Like Jazz. At a given junction, I will have kept everything the same but then change just one tiny link. In my current day job, which is to find defects, I find them because I never look for them in the same way twice. I look for an avenue or possible weakness I never explored before, even if it costs me time. Even if I should be doing something else. I have documentation, yes, but I never follow it exactly... It seems I just can't, I always alter the pattern in way of exploration. I find stuff nobody else does, and have gained a bit of renown for it. When I need to give an explanation, I can't tell them how it was really found, because it would not be respected. They think it's rigor, but really it's the random links in the lattice.

I don't learn fast, about average speed, but I often follow paths until they dead end. Once I know a thing, I also know a great many of the wrong ways too. Every once in a great while I find something entirely new.

It's hard to stick to things, but my Saturn helps me. It's made me want to master things, to stay with them in spite of a constant search for variation.

In juggling, the pattern is in reference to time just like music. Once you know the pattern, you can change it, and also change the timing. In the space of a second an artist working with rhythm and time can direct many more actions than someone untrained can usually conceive of. People always ask... how do you keep track of all of those things? When it's a great number of things, they get experienced as a whole, yet you know where everything is. To me this is a great mystery as sometimes the patterns seem to have a mind of their own. And then bang! Something impossible happens that will never happen again and everyone knows it with a certain thrill. A big pattern of individual flying things becomes a shape. To fix it to or to alter it, the entire shape gets massaged.

The opposite phenomenon with slack line walking... When done well it looks so easy. Nothing to walking a slack line or a tight rope. Yet to be actually doing it, there are a million adjustments going on under the surface that are totally invisible to a watcher.

As a rock climber, I follow lines of weakness in the rock structure. You find a cliff face and look for the cracks. It's the weak point in the pattern that allows passage, that enables us to climb.

I prefer the balancing point to either side, in fact I think almost everything I do is in some way an expression of this. I fix patterns, gain passage at the balance points.

7/8/07 10:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

In my current day job, which is to find defects, I find them because I never look for them in the same way twice. I look for an avenue or possible weakness I never explored before, even if it costs me time.

This is great and it ties in with the discussion of randomness which fascinates me to no end. The fact that it costs time is telling. That's part of the creativity, the breakup of linear time, and the trap of fitting in to a set time frame. Very very very important to finding what we seek. Time is the dictatorial authoritarian thing people fear.

This is so interesting. I have a theory that finding the defects is the path to what we desire. We have to know this first.

The opposite phenomenon with slack line walking... When done well it looks so easy. Nothing to walking a slack line or a tight rope. Yet to be actually doing it, there are a million adjustments going on under the surface that are totally invisible to a watcher.

I have been stunned by tightrope walking all my life wondering how it's done. This is amazing. Could it be a matter of great fexibility, a strong Gemini trait? And quicknes of reaction? In fact, so instantaneous a reaction you can't even perceive it. What an amazing thing to achieve. Do you have to conquer fear entirely to do it?

As a rock climber, I follow lines of weakness in the rock structure. You find a cliff face and look for the cracks. It's the weak point in the pattern that allows passage, that enables us to climb.

This is one of the most profound statements I've ever heard.

All of this points to the value of defect and weakness which I think is vital to great personal development and avoided consciously at all costs, such as the cost of time. Who likes to spend time making mistakes? The fear and guilt around imperfection. The shame even. It should be the exact opposite. We should embrace the flaw, follow it, as you do on the rocks.

This is wonderful, mpk. I'm going to digest this.

7/8/07 10:57 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm thinking of the lattice the random links

I like this idea.

7/8/07 10:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is all so illuminating. The circus arts such as juggling, acrobatics, and rope walking are much more than they seem. I'm very interested in the personality types that follow these pursuits and what separates them from athletes who deal with such agility, quickness and balance. Does mastering these change the personality?

7/8/07 11:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And does this not involve the Trickster?

7/8/07 11:05 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Well, appropriately enough, one of my most fav art teachers is a Gemini, and very much in character as one. I'm not sure what signs the others were, but as a group, the most interesting ones could be described as Aquarian or highly Uranian in tone.

7/8/07 11:43 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I do the same things over and over but never the same way twice. I add a random link. Like Jazz."

That's a great connection.

"At a given junction, I will have kept everything the same but then change just one tiny link. In my current day job, which is to find defects, I find them because I never look for them in the same way twice."

That makes good sense. Ferreting out the unexpected and hidden aspects.

"They think it's rigor, but really it's the random links in the lattice."

Wow, that's a truly interesting testimonial to its effectiveness. I could call that something fancy like "openness to novelty", but somehow that doesn't convey how well it works.

"I have documentation, yes, but I never follow it exactly... It seems I just can't, I always alter the pattern in way of exploration."

LOL That reminds me of when my aunt asked me to put together a table she'd bought from Aikea. I examined the components with great interest. After a bit, she asked me what I was doing, and why I didn't just read the instruction sheet. I sighed and basically asked where's the fun (and learning) in that.

"Once I know a thing, I also know a great many of the wrong ways too. Every once in a great while I find something entirely new. It's hard to stick to things, but my Saturn helps me. It's made me want to master things, to stay with them in spite of a constant search for variation."

Well, one take away from your story is that mastery also means knowing something about the wrong things to do, or how things don't work. I was thinking that Saturn is a symbol for reality, so its placement could represent "I know -- because I've been there." Interesting teacher.

"You find a cliff face and look for the cracks. It's the weak point in the pattern that allows passage, that enables us to climb."

Another beautiful image. Definitely will remember that one.

8/8/07 12:12 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm incorporating the weak points in the rocks with our inner government ideas right away.

It's interesting about the weak point in the pattern. What is this saying about Saturn? We think of rigidity in the rocklike structure and some unforgivingness in this entity but the weakness allowing passage sheds a new light on the situation for me.

8/8/07 12:23 AM  
Blogger kj said...

The connections it took to form the piece will be unique and non-repeatable, even if the method is as old as the hills.

Isn't everything like this? Is life art?


I would say living can be an art. @;-)

But no, I wouldn't go so far as to say everything is a work of art. Even if that argument could be made, and I'm sure it probably could, what would be the point of talking about works of creation and re-creation? We do that every time we brush our teeth. :-)

8/8/07 3:44 AM  
Blogger kj said...

I can see art as always renewing itself, finding new expressions, and changing with -- and responsive to -- the times. Kind of like life. It's not a finished, completed endeavor in that sense. That's kind of a very good thing, I think.

Kad, what an idea! Art as an entity! I often personify emotions, even my lean understandings of astrology take the form of personas and archetypes, but, duh, hadn't thought to do that with Art. Except, I don't really like that name. Would have to come up with another name, definitely. Hmmm, what to rename Art...

8/8/07 3:50 AM  
Blogger kj said...

mpk, wow. fascinating glimpses. so much ground covered. i'm in awe.

As a rock climber, I follow lines of weakness in the rock structure. You find a cliff face and look for the cracks. It's the weak point in the pattern that allows passage, that enables us to climb.

Not to take this wonderful conversation off into religion, but your comment brought to mind a comment I heard years ago at a retreat. He said, "God is in our longings." Now, I don't believe God is a supernatural entity, so translating this sentence to something I could relate to was a puzzle. Your sentence It's the weak point in the pattern that allows passage, that enables us to climb. comes as close to describing the idea as anything I've ever read, heard or thought. Wow. Love it.

8/8/07 4:11 AM  
Blogger kj said...

oh, oh, oh! :-)

I'm going through old papers, keeping little, tossing much, when I ran across a clipped and yellowed newspaper article (no date, unfortunately) about the oracle of Delphi. Apparently, there is an intersection of two geologic faults beneath what is believed (although there isn't any evidence yet) is the chasm the various women sat their tripod over to take questions.

Cool, eh? :-) (And now I know where a line in one of my poems came from.)

Also, there were vapors and fumes coming up from a fissure in the ground.

Okay, so connections everywhere.
Back to work.

8/8/07 7:35 AM  
Anonymous chrispito said...

Kad, you should have shown her the instructions! They're usually so ridiculously impossible to follow you might as well make it up as you go, LOL! At least for me, they are...

8/8/07 7:39 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Except, I don't really like that name. Would have to come up with another name, definitely. Hmmm, what to rename Art..."

Well, since I'm so literal-minded, I named two of my computers after some of the most ancient muses. The names of the three original muses are Mneme (memory), Melete (meditation and practice), and Aoide (song). They were the daughters of Mnemosyne, a Titan who was also the personification of memory.

A painter whose works I'd admired was intuitively inspired to paint a series depicting three mysterious women. He eventually identified them as Memory, Meditation and Song.

8/8/07 8:23 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"a comment I heard years ago at a retreat"

That is a good connection you're making. Very nice. :-)

8/8/07 8:27 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"They're usually so ridiculously impossible to follow you might as well make it up as you go, LOL!"

Haha! Good point.

She told me that she dbought some file drawers a few weeks ago, and she's still putting them together, slowly. The parts don't fit right, she said. She had to drill new holes, but then the holes came out too big.

Funnily enough, I just checked her birthdate, and she has sun in Gemini, Virgo rising, and nearly everything else in Cancer. I think I understand her slightly better after reading jm's commentaries on Cancer!

8/8/07 8:32 AM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

I was thinking of the lattice and suddenly remembered that it has a name: the Net of Indra

8/8/07 8:57 AM  
Blogger kj said...

Net of Indra! :-) mpk, Kad introduced me to the wonderful Net of Indra just about a year ago.

:-) :-) :-)

8/8/07 12:19 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Kad,

Re: connections.
I do love when the little 'clicks' occur.

8/8/07 12:21 PM  
Blogger kj said...

hmmmm, wrote the above post before reading anon's post below. sometimes the word "click" can say it all, eh? 2;-)

8/8/07 12:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Forgot the net of Indra? Anyone?

It's intriguing how so many of us responded to the weakness in the rocks and finding passage. Struck a chord. I'm interested in the reasons, of course.

Speaking of memory, meditation and song; it seems that these entities are behind these reponses. Something about what mpk said reminded us of something in a poetic way?

One thing for me. This culture stigmatizes the word "weak", and after this conversation I saw how ludicrous this is. My loved I Ching is based on half of life being weak lines. Yielding. Necessary.
So why does our language give it such a bad connotation? How powerful words are.

8/8/07 1:26 PM  
Blogger Don said...

upon first reading, i connected the weakness in the rocks and finding passage to the movement thru saturn (the inner government as you say JM) - into whatever fears and vulnerabilities define and limit individuality and on past to what is beyond. but the idea of climbing does not fit - it seems to be a descent with effort diminishing....

8/8/07 2:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

i connected the weakness in the rocks and finding passage to the movement thru saturn (the inner government as you say JM) - into whatever fears and vulnerabilities define and limit individuality and on past to what is beyond.

This is perfect.

but the idea of climbing does not fit - it seems to be a descent with effort diminishing

Maybe this is the key. trying too hard in the climb. Finding the slack. Actually there is another kind of tension in the descent, just as hard, I think. A restrained effort.

There must be a clue here, in that the climb and descent are equal. True Saturnian wisdom. Funny that we think the climb is preferable, just like the strong lines.

I like this idea of passing through vulnerabilities.

8/8/07 3:13 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is so very very interesting just as my 2nd Saturn return is ending.

I think it started when I was about 10 years old or so, this musical climb to the top, and I applied constant effort until a couple of years ago. I found the weak line and stopped exerting myself. At first I was terrified and tried to grasp the familiar line, but I couldn't, until all manifest effort subsided.

My good sense said this was vital to the next phase, but my fears thought maybe it was justification. It's been one of my greatest challenges to stop following the obvious strength. What happens next will be revealing, but this idea of inner government and weakness camouflaging probable strength is precious thought.

Verifies my basic dictum that things are not what they appear to be and in between the lines are where the answers lie.

8/8/07 3:27 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

I love the rock climbing comment too.

Maybe this is the key. trying too hard in the climb. Finding the slack. Actually there is another kind of tension in the descent, just as hard, I think. A restrained effort.

Now this is interesting as the descent is indeed very different in rock climbing. Rappelling or abseiling one stands at the edge of the cliff, leans back into rope and jumps backwards into empty space, trusting in the anchor, the equipment. Speed is controlled by friction of the rope either wrapped around the body or through special carabiners keeping the rope tension tight- feeding through your hands, one's a brake the other the guide. too slack and out you fall, too tignt and you are caught.

8/8/07 3:40 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Curiously this concept, tho slightly differently phrased, was the frequent topic at my last show. The idea that perfection pushes us away and a "flaw" allows entry into the painting, a gate for the viewer to enter with their own experiences to complete the work. (part of my process of cutting apart and reassembling -leaving edges that move in response to the local environment)Too perfect leaves no entry, nothing to grip. You find this idea in Japanese pottery. The too perfect pot will be eased slightly off center to attain less symmetry and more "perfection.

8/8/07 3:47 PM  
Blogger jm said...

jumps backwards into empty space, trusting in the anchor, the equipment.

Hmmmmm...Descent. Letting go. Trust in externals. Climp. Grip. Trust in self.

one's a brake the other the guide. too slack and out you fall, too tight and you are caught.

What a metaphor. This is getting better and better. As Capricorn approaches and we climbers get ready. Have we been on the descent learning to trust?

8/8/07 3:50 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

mmmm i like your last comment very much jm
Often our strengths are our weaknesses....i'm always alert to what's between the spaces.

Curious just like Les Paul.

8/8/07 3:53 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The idea that perfection pushes us away and a "flaw" allows entry into the painting, a gate for the viewer to enter with their own experiences to complete the work.

Omg. I know this is right. Exactly the thought about the weak line in the rock.
Perfection in our limited way is dictatorial, pedantic, is it not? I love the idea of the flaw as the gate, the entry. I think my life just burped.

What a collaboration here. this is stunning.

8/8/07 3:53 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

What a metaphor. This is getting better and better. As Capricorn approaches and we climbers get ready. Have we been on the descent learning to trust?

Dunno
I never much liked rock climbing though i've done a ton. My need was to be proficient so i could wander in the mountains safely. So good technique and training could allow me to be an adventurer.

The very same could be said of my paintings.

And your music i suspect.

8/8/07 3:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yes, Les Paul came in and spoke. My guitar is based on his model. It's mind-boggling - the effect he's had on musicians. Love his NN and Uranus in Aquarius, connected to all of us as he is. 'Member Les Paul and Mary Ford? Wrap Your Troubles in Dreams?

Often our strengths are our weaknesses

This is it exactly. Most would have said this in reverse, calling our weakness strength. This is so in-the-know.

8/8/07 3:59 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm blown away by the gateway into the painting comment.

8/8/07 3:59 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm not a rock climber. Too hard. I have Saturn trines and sextiles.

So good technique and training could allow me to be an adventurer.

I would say that, and curiously, I've never though a whole lot of technique was needed for mastery. I part ways with most on this. There is an optimum amount for each individual that provides the gateway to adventure.
Great thought.

8/8/07 4:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Example. I never developed my keyboard technique in the traditional way since I knew I was going to leave most of it out anyway, so why go through the agony?

My style is uniquely my own and people think I play well, but I really don't. Or do I?

8/8/07 4:06 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Perfection in our limited way is dictatorial, pedantic, is it not? I love the idea of the flaw as the gate, the entry. I think my life just burped.

Apparently so have many. This was the stunner of my trip. Really truly jm this last show was a wow for me. The article i mentioned in jazzrap - perfection vs creativity - this grew out of the conversations....

Telling people about my process and how i had to break my habit of polishing everything to perfection until the vitality was gone. No room for others. I was very driven as a young person, perfect, grades etc ick, ick, ick. Then i found the book Centering, Taoist philosophy (early 1970's) and i jumped the tracks.

8/8/07 4:06 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

My response would be only enough technique to be safe.

Or in the art enough to begin our own adventure.

In this case...
enough is too much.

8/8/07 4:11 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

I saw this in homeschooling. Too much demand for perfection kills the curiosity, the desire to explore maybe find a new path.

Just enough and the mastery becomes natural and your own.

8/8/07 4:13 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

hehe
on the other hand, the guy who engineers the elevator has different parameters.

8/8/07 4:15 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Telling people about my process and how i had to break my habit of polishing everything to perfection until the vitality was gone.

The absolute key.

In this case...
enough is too much.


HA HA HA HA HA!! Ain't it the truth????

The problem with it all is that the perfection doesn't exist. Disappointment is inherent. Why is saturn always associated with disappointment?

8/8/07 4:19 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Vitality is the aim, and what gives something that shimmer of life is breakthrough, the unexpected, unpredictable, and even nonsensical. Random?
Perfection is cold and empty, methinks.

8/8/07 4:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

hehe
on the other hand, the guy who engineers the elevator has different parameters.


Yes, but the inventor had different ones yet.

8/8/07 4:22 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Well jm i wish you could have seen the lightbulbs going off as i explained that the "flaw" was the gift to them. Welcome. Rest here a moment let your experience complete this.

Searching for perfection in commercially created products, boring beyond belief, they thought these were the collectibles and yet were drawn to my work.

Better, they could relate personally to the process, the ragged eared cat who was beloved, the twisted tree, each had a story.

i loved it.

8/8/07 4:25 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Maybe going back to your previous comment, we are the tripwire that slows others down, just a moment to look, listen with their own senses rather than the programmed one.

8/8/07 4:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Rest here a moment let your experience complete this.

Exactly. This is the inner government concept I'm developing which leaves the outside direction to the outside. I'm the doer. They are the receivers and are just as important.

The stories when genuine leap from a work of art. Absolutely. And these are what they want. Myth.

8/8/07 4:29 PM  
Blogger jm said...

God, I hope I can get this! I need to get to work (outside) soon and this is the approach I want.

8/8/07 4:30 PM  
Blogger jm said...

we are the tripwire that slows others down

Ha ha!!!! Great one. Really, if you only knew! Wait. You do know!

8/8/07 4:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Omg, yes. The tripwire. the high wire. The slack, the tension, the incredibly suspenseful stopped moment.

YES!!!

8/8/07 4:32 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The harmonics, the reverberations afterward tell the story. So this is important on the heels of your beautiful exhibition of self. We love the interaction with the audience, more than we sometimes realize. The process is empty without them.

8/8/07 4:35 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Why is saturn always associated with disappointment?

OMG yes.
Taking it all too far.
No wonder the struggle with Jupiter.

Oh oh oh i have Jupiter opp Saturn. well well how interesting.

Myth.

8/8/07 4:45 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Saturn opp Jupiter. Perfect blend. Pleasing self and others. They go together.

I have the trine. Leo-Sag, blending fun with higher purpose, leaning more toward the Saturn block to fun, controlling the bloviating Jupiter and all his teachings!

This is interesting, tseka. Today's headline:

Review of colorado bridges to begin

Well well. Our trusty bridge. I know the Mars in Cancer is it.

8/8/07 5:02 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Cancer is the imperfection. The human flaw that makes things recognizable and relatable. That's one of the reasons Cancers are so forgiving.

Myth and the story. It serves a vital function in the perception of continuity in a chaotic reality. Stories have beginnings and endings.

8/8/07 5:05 PM  
Blogger jm said...

After the repair of the bridges with saturn in Virgo will come the peace talks in the Middle east when Saturn gets into Libra. They should be in full swing then. They are already starting. Virgo, USA 9th house.

8/8/07 5:07 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

All good JM

Did you happen to see that Michael Lutin will give the "State of the World" address at the National Press Club in Jan 08?

Kinda tickles me. We are slipping right into new times.

8/8/07 5:19 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Makes me think of Jupiter leading Pluto into Capricorn might be a good thing.

8/8/07 5:20 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Michael Lutin looks to me to be Leo, what do you think?

Also makes me think about the NN Aquarius connection.

In any case another person to nudge, jostle, and otherwise help define the Pluto in Cap.

8/8/07 5:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Ha ha! Michael Lutin. New times, indeed. Incredible, but not surprising. Pluto through Sagittarius.

Not sure. I get sone Cancer dilemmas with him. Taurus. Maybe some virgo. I spent time with him years ago and I was impressed but no longer. His predictions have been all wrong lately and he seems to be off his mark altogether. I listened to his node tapes recently and they were mediocre in retrospect, although I learned from them at first. He is not top on the list for me, and I hope eventually great astrologers will rise. It will take time. He's sleazy and I don't like that image for astrology. he does have some good things going though:-) I don't read him anymore.

Makes me think of Jupiter leading Pluto into Capricorn might be a good thing.

Not only that, Jupiter will soon be in Cap himself.

This is quite big. The meeting of the brothers with Dad. Big pow wow in the executive office.

I love the Jupiter Pluto conjunction trine Saturn in Virgo for the kick-off. It bodes well.

8/8/07 5:40 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

yep, i am so looking forward to this solstice it's packed on the Ullr bridge with everybody slipping into Cap and the Aq NN to boot.

I don't really know enough to comment on Michael Lutin as an astrologer i simply love the idea that the stat of the world address will be delivered by one. What a hoot. Doesn't really matter too much about him or even what he says just that an astrologer is opening the Jan 2008 season for discussion.

8/8/07 5:48 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The problem remains no matter how much we progress, that the spotlight is usually occupied by the lesser lights. The great ones seem to work in obscurity and I don't know if this will change or not. This medium is changing something however. Great talent is finding an audience outside the system. This could be very good, especially since money is not as much the aim.

People who seek fame and public approval often have this as a priority and will sacrifice authenticity to get it, more and moreso as they get further into the false light. It's a drug, and I have yet to see anyone resist the devil's pact that seems to be required. There is a cold void inside the famous that seeks the warmth of the false light, and in the end, it could be a guideline to what we were talking about earlier. What is true wealth? What is true recognition?

As materialism reroutes there is a possibility of real value getting out there. We have to rework our value system in this country indicated by all the 2nd-8th house changes coming up.
Patience.

8/8/07 5:52 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Doesn't really matter too much about him or even what he says just that an astrologer is opening the Jan 2008 season for discussion.

Yes and no from my perspective. I think it might be a little premature, and I am not pleased with the overall astrological representation yet. But what it portends is good.

8/8/07 5:54 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I personally would prefer it to be someone other than Lutin in the vanguard, but what's happening out there at the Press Club is not the real thing anyway, so it doesn't matter in the end.

8/8/07 5:56 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Well said and just what i observed at the recent show. Venus Rx doesn't hurt to reevaluate love, money, etc either.

8/8/07 5:56 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Astrology is coming back in and nothing will alter that. There are still many things to get straight first, though, before it has full legitimacy and that will be later. It has to move from "love signs" and all the nonsense, from prediction and fear, even from the Jungian obssession, and that will take much time. The longer the wait the better, I think. The Capricorn years will help as it becomes serious stuff.

8/8/07 6:00 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Overreaching and rushing have been the downside of the Sagittarius years. Pulling in, consolidating, and restricting will come now.

8/8/07 6:01 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

I hope you are considering a book about the nodes and possibly more.

I have been asked to write about myth and Hel. How do i do this? My life already seems packed to the gunnels. Do i want to?

It's funny isn't it how life takes twists and turns.

At the moment everything rests. My biggest effort is pulling the lids off the cat food cans. Strong motivators keep me in line on that one.

8/8/07 6:03 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Well, since I'm so literal-minded, I named two of my computers after some of the most ancient muses. The names of the three original muses are Mneme (memory), Melete (meditation and practice), and Aoide (song). They were the daughters of Mnemosyne, a Titan who was also the personification of memory.

A previous computer was named Taliesin, but, my current two have no name. Also, I'm giving one computer away and putting everything onto this laptop. I don't know if I'll ever want a desktop machine again, using this one is so much better on my back and neck.

That has nothing to do with a name, however. Hmmm. Our relationship (me and this here laptop) is easy and fine, we barely needed an introduction. So the name would have to be one that is familiar, a nickname almost, something to express our kinship. Now I'll have to think. Indra would shorten to Indy, and that's too close to home. So, something else. Maybe Eos. We connect every morning for the dawn.

geeze. ;-)

8/8/07 6:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Venus Rx doesn't hurt to reevaluate love, money, etc either.

Exactly. The more time we give this, the better it will be. The NN in Aquarius will help. It's all ahead. After the saturn return in Libra, saturn goes into Scorpio which is even MORE of this stuff. The universe is definitely pulling for us. Uranus in Taurus being big.

8/8/07 6:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

At the moment everything rests. My biggest effort is pulling the lids off the cat food cans. Strong motivators keep me in line on that one.

LOL! Yes.
Put it this way. My biggest effort is keeping the lid on myself!!

8/8/07 6:07 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

This is my feeling somethings need to be released in a different time.

Small bits now pave the way.
Some are ready most are not.

I have over the years watched people buy crappy prints, hang them, grow tired of them and somewhere in that process opened to original art, sought it out replaced the print.

When people buy a crappy print, i am jubilant, they have taken their shoes off to put their bare feet in the ocean. First step.

8/8/07 6:07 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Oh yes, please, both of you JM and tseka, write. JM with the nodes, tseka with myth.

How do you do this? You write one sentence the very first thing upon rising. Very first thing, no coffee, no breakfast, no opening windows, dash off a sentence. Then begin your day. When you come back to the writing, the day's first sentence is there... waiting.

It works. It's painless. It was offered to me by someone who has written for years and years and runs a writing studio in Chicago.

I want to read what you both write.

8/8/07 6:11 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

LOL! Yes.
Put it this way. My biggest effort is keeping the lid on myself!!


we shall have to consult Aunt Jenny, now that woman knows how to REST.

8/8/07 6:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is my feeling somethings need to be released in a different time.

I think so. Capricorn. Timing. Methodical progression. All ahead. Timing. Timing. Timing.


When people buy a crappy print, i am jubilant, they have taken their shoes off to put their bare feet in the ocean. First step.


Absolutely and so wise. This phase isn't quite over yet.

I think what's happening now is the slow steady building of the foundation. I don't expect things to blossom until well into Capricorn. It's blueprint time.

It's most important not to be abortive at this point. It will follow if each step is done mindfully. I think Saturn is also about reward within the process. Reward with each small step.

8/8/07 6:13 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Why the waiting? This is where my last of understanding the planets comes in... how, exactly, will waiting for a planet to enter into another's orbit help further a process here on earth? Is it like tides, with the moon's pull?

8/8/07 6:15 PM  
Blogger jm said...

YES!!!!!! Aunt Jenny!
You are so right. I believe we'll have to call her in.

You are precious.

8/8/07 6:15 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Waiting is learning.

8/8/07 6:16 PM  
Blogger kj said...

What are we learning?

8/8/07 6:17 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

The problem KJ is when i begin a project it is total immersion for me, lost for days, years.

You should have seem me studying for my doctorate...my shoulders just sagged. I loved every second. The energy required to juggle all the day to day with a new passion is enormous.

Who knows i will just keep listening to the answers that blow on the wind. replies to "what do you wish me to know"

Everything always has happened just as it should in my life. Perhaps a book is writing itself behind scenes.

8/8/07 6:20 PM  
Blogger kj said...

These are serious questions from me, attempting to understand the why of waiting. (Not that I can't come up with plenty of my own reasons to wait.) But for so much in my immediate days to come, there is no more time for waiting.

So, I'm wondering what it is you're talking about JM, what is coming, what is worth the wait?

8/8/07 6:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is important.

As those of us seeking public recogntion navigate now in these changing times, I think it's important to let IT do what it does while we do what we do in anticipation of the fit timewise. When we are done with the prep and the audience is ready. This we don't control. So what they're all doing matters not. The discovery of our individual parts of the puzzle is the aim and that should be easy with Capricorn and its logic.

Then the calling. 10th house. Vocation. Saturn. Capricorn. Timing.

I've always thought Saturn has everything to do with eartly rhythm.

8/8/07 6:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Everything always has happened just as it should in my life.

Later for the books, methinks. We have the Aries transit coming up. Not your sit-at-the-desk mode.

Fasten your seat belt, my friend.

8/8/07 6:24 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Ah, if I'm reading this correctly, this waiting is for others, for time, for flow. But the work itself, personal, is on-going. When it is tossed upon the waves is something else entirely. Is this close?

8/8/07 6:24 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yup, kj. Attention to self.

8/8/07 6:25 PM  
Blogger kj said...

LOL Where is Aries transiting us to? Does she blow through? Do we go along with her? Is she charting another new path?

We could takes notes on the road, maybe!

8/8/07 6:26 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

That is my intuitive take on it KJ.

8/8/07 6:27 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Okay, so I have time to write. ^whew^ that was worrying me.

8/8/07 6:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

You wait for some things and pursue others all the time. The big thing humans wait for never comes, and some people as they age understand this and start to take life as it unfolds, doing what they REALLY want to do. Or nothing, if that's it.

8/8/07 6:28 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

One thing that i was thinking about just the other day was how i have Capricorn in my 10th. After Pluto gets off my Sun he sticks around in my 10th for a bit. I have a feeling that could be very interesting and different from that past few years.

8/8/07 6:29 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

I don't need nothin' form nobody
I got a strong hit of this when Jupiter went into sag trining my jupiter in Aries.

whoa

I may have to put myself into training.

8/8/07 6:35 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yeah, Aries is going to address all three of us. Pluto. Soon. we all have very early degrees. Survival from our depths. Energy that we never had before. Pluto will go to the source of our potential power and unleash it. Our selfness. our autonomy.

Put it this way. Aries:

I don't need nothin' from nobody

Yes. capricorn 10th. The big things come later with these transits. I guarantee it will be different after he gets off the Sun. Whoah. if you look now you'll see how you've just cleared your path, soon to be cleared even more with the Aries.

8/8/07 6:36 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Well I really want to continue sorting through my books (and to a lesser extent) papers. Did this just a year ago, but today found just short of 50 books that can either go to trade or free to the local tea house. Tomorrow there will be more. What's left is what I find still has value. This cutting is deliberate. So far, no pain. It is part of the clearing the decks, desk, to simply write. clean desk. one sentence first thing every morning.

I'll have to rely on you to here to explain the rest, when the babies need to go our for their readings and shows.

8/8/07 6:38 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It's so close I can feel it. Pluto to my Mars. And I already understand it.

oop! I corrected and I shouldn't have!!!!! You see!!!

And look at our concurrent whoas!

How funny. I didn't think you's go with the nothin' from nobody. NN in the 1st.

We must pursue this one.

8/8/07 6:39 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And now I made even more mistakes!!!!

Well tough! Perfection begone!

8/8/07 6:40 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Perfection makes the gods angry, anyway. Or so I've heard. ;-)

8/8/07 6:41 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There is a reason the Aries point is there at the beginning of Capricorn (with the cap 10th), karmawise, for us. Very very crucial as the solo woman artist goes out there. Very crucial.

8/8/07 6:43 PM  
Blogger kj said...

nod calls. g'nite.

8/8/07 6:43 PM  
Blogger jm said...

'nite kj.

8/8/07 6:44 PM  
Blogger kj said...

look forward to reading the posts come tomorrow morning, JM.

8/8/07 6:47 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

good night Kj
always a pleasure to share time with you.

8/8/07 6:49 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

There is a reason the Aries point is there at the beginning of Capricorn (with the cap 10th), karmawise, for us. Very very crucial as the solo woman artist goes out there. Very crucial.

Very, very interesting comment. The feminine aspect of Capricorn, i've never understood. Some is starting to make sense.

Ever since Pluto came across the MC i have felt that surge of "selfness" you spoke of with regards to my art. Uranus in my first probably shocks the heck out of others....moving into the NN 1 identity more forcefully. I'm like you seeing the patterns of the unfolding much more clearly not so much the what but the flavor.

8/8/07 6:54 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Good point about the feminine of Cap, thus the patience, the absorbing, the timing.

And that's a great point about the flavor. The "what" can be anything within that framework.

Cap is the framework. Aries is the stamp of self.
Aries-Capricorn is highly highly disciplined. It's the building of muscle to do the task at hand. It's the consolidation of potential energy and use. It's the "perfection" of the body, not necessarily physical.

The best part is the total focus of energy in Aries. The bridling of fiery power, great for an artist. It will be better if we work with it.

Saturn-Mars which you already have. It's a good setup. 10th house. I think you can see the pattern.

8/8/07 7:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Aries is the most initiating energy in the zodia. Cardinal fire. Saturn is Cardinal earth. There's the story.

8/8/07 7:05 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The thing about this upcoming Aries transit is the urgency of survival. Whatever that means to us. Pluto will take us to the source of that. Is it being a successful artist? Is that what your incarnation's survival hinges on? This will become clear.

Whatever is yours, and yours alone, that you can depend on for this survival, outside of dependencies for other reasons, will dominate. If you want to be an artist then all oher parts of your life will be secondary when Pluto-Mars is involved.

There is a sort of ruthlessness, but this won't harm others if completely owned. If the survival instinct is allowd it's full expression

Omg. This is for me. Wow.

I suffered huge consequences when Pluto conjuncted my Mars from having repressed my aggressive Aries energy and I don't plan on repeating that. But right after that, I got my first piano for myself and my own music. He rented it for me. No one wanted that experience again!

8/8/07 7:14 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

What i actually love is how i am seeing a pattern of similarity reaching maturity in others as well. As if we have all been working separately and have suddenly arrived at the same place.

I shared a room with a dear friend from Germany at the show. She turns wood. I bought a very small bowl from her years ago. It is about the size of a japanese tea bowl and so thin you can see light through the wood. The shape is oval. I showed my son when i got home, "you will never guess," i began, as i placed this fragile thing in his hands. "A woman did this he said immediately." "How did you know?" "Only a woman could do something this sensitive"

She choses green wood from her local forest. Turns them on a lathe down to paper thinness and lets them dry into "their own shape."

You can see her whole life in these pieces. It was not easy.

It is artists like her i see emerging, and distinguishing themselves from the massive group, finding the point of "perfection that is not perfect"

8/8/07 7:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Keep in mind that the Jupiter in Aries rules your Sagittarius Sun which just got knocked by Pluto! You are about to travel entirely new terrain.

Be back shortly. This is fascinating.

8/8/07 7:18 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There is a network of genuine artists-people always at work. Always. In plain sight.

8/8/07 7:21 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Pluto Mars conjuction -all those miscarriages. big message that i didn't hear even with saturn in the mix. Just kept on and kept on even against the advice of others driven by some deep force that said i know better and will make it and survive.

Barely did.

Maybe with the wisdom of my friend jazz mira i will be paying better attention this time.

hahahah i thought we were talking about you....but really we are both named in this cap 10th coming right up.

8/8/07 7:22 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Omg! I can't quit. Your Mars-Pluto!

Yes. We have a lot ahead. Attention is a good idea.

Me? Pluto across Jupiter in Aries?????? Mine is only a square:-)

8/8/07 7:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

We shall see. It will be most interesting to see how this takes shape with the ongoing conversation. The brand new angle. The new terrain.

Hmmmm..... As in Hummmmmm..

8/8/07 7:29 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

maybe we should make that
aauuuuuuummmmmmmmm

8/8/07 7:35 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I was thinking of that!!! Almost posted it!

And I made yet another mistake. You have the square too.

Tseka this is fabulous. So much is pouring in. So many commonalities.
More in a sec.

8/8/07 9:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It was earth shattering the reminder about our Pluto-Mars experiences. We both needed them at that time to be that intense. Yours was something.

This is the opportunity of a lifetime, and here is what we're up against. Aries is self, but both of us have the Libra complication. And is it ever complicated. One thing we'll have to struggle with is leaving our concerns about others on the back burner at first and for you especially, this will be very hard. It's necessary to get this kicked off though. It will take full concentration on ourselves with the 10th house involved.

After the Jupiter and my Mars, Pluto will come to your Uranus, ruler of your ASC for more of the same only this time it will also square the Libra. Then you'll incorporate all of them into the new terrain.

When that happens for you, Pluto will be conjunct my MC. My goals will be the only story going. Both of us have Pluto coming to release us from the approval needs, since an artist can't do that. Not initially. The approval will have to come after the fact. Our NNs.

So the first impact will be our identities and our energy. The strength that has eluded us will be coming in torrents if we get with it and remind ourselves that we will be taking care of their needs again. More successfully. There is a rebirth with Pluto-Mars and a separation at first.

I can feel it already. I want full responsibilty for my life. My life is my own.

8/8/07 9:40 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Speaking of memory, meditation and song; it seems that these entities are behind these responses."

I've been musing on the muses. And in connection to this blog. For one thing, they are sisters, yes? They are a set. Non-hierarchical. They perform together quite well, though people mentally separate them. Somehow, they make each other more themselves, leading from one quite naturally to the other, a regenerative circle dancing around the negative space of the, er, indescribable.

Artists really know the negative space, and still we throw words and images into the ethers (and the Internet), and recreate, renew.

8/8/07 10:29 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The idea that perfection pushes us away and a 'flaw' allows entry into the painting, a gate for the viewer to enter with their own experiences to complete the work."

Ooh, wonderful. Yes. I must remember that.

8/8/07 10:30 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I love the muses.

Artists really know the negative space, and still we throw words and images into the ethers (and the Internet), and recreate, renew.

Beautiful thought. this has been entirely exciting and uplifting, these phrases emerging from these friends of the muses around here.

This doesn't "negate" negative space. It plays within it. Like the muses who seem to enjoy their lives thoroughly doing just what they desire. Poetry, music, ideas. They do seem to be somewhat mentally inclined. What did they eat?

One story says they were required to play for the gods' banquets, but that was brief, and they spent most of their time in creative play in nature.

8/8/07 10:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Meaning art and money have never mixed!

8/8/07 10:39 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This has been entirely exciting and uplifting, these phrases emerging from these friends of the muses around here."

Muses dance. We dance. It all goes together.

"Like the muses who seem to enjoy their lives thoroughly doing just what they desire."

Well, I say, why not? They have to do something.

"Poetry, music, ideas. They do seem to be somewhat mentally inclined. What did they eat?"

LOL! Trust you to ask such a question. Art and beauty, maybe. Maybe tseka knows for sure.

Or maybe they'll consume anything in sight. All grist for the creative mill. French fries, say. And then out comes poetry. Or maybe not poetry.

8/8/07 10:49 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Like the muses who seem to enjoy their lives thoroughly doing just what they desire.

Well, I say, why not? They have to do something.

Ha ha! Exactement.

Potato chips! I'm sure of it!!

8/8/07 10:56 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And look what the muses teach us. The world of poetry, music, and ideas is one in which we all cooperate and enjoy life.

8/8/07 11:02 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"hehe
on the other hand, the guy who engineers the elevator has different parameters."


"Yes, but the inventor had different ones yet."

Oh, that inventor! All we wanted was a ladder into the tree house.

8/8/07 11:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

So darned simple. These geniuses have to make things so complicated. Speak to them, will you kad? They hang out in your neck of the woods.

8/8/07 11:08 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is so exciting. this group creativity in realtime.

8/8/07 11:12 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Who knows i will just keep listening to the answers that blow on the wind. replies to 'what do you wish me to know'"

Hey, that's very close to what I say when I'm walking on the street! :-)

Something stirs and I go, hmm, and I think something like, "Something you want to show me?"

Last time it led to a bookstand on a corner, and a book that opened to a passage about network effects.

8/8/07 11:25 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Speak to them, will you kad? They hang out in your neck of the woods."

I do this at work. Talk to the engineers and to the marketing/salespeople. Boy, they do complain about each other. :-)

Had to learn the languages.

8/8/07 11:27 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Ah, if I'm reading this correctly, this waiting is for others, for time, for flow. But the work itself, personal, is on-going. When it is tossed upon the waves is something else entirely. Is this close?"

I'm waiting, too. Or not waiting, depending on how you look at it. :-)

8/8/07 11:39 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This has been an interesting conversation and I've given it some more thought.

The weakness in the rock, Saturn, and Capricorn. And Aries-Capricorn.

I think Aries is the most unyielding of the entities. He goes on strength and constant firmness. The weakness in saturn makes me think of this entity as somewhat yielding contrary to popular opinion.

Explains Capricorn's feminine polarity.
Thank you all.

9/8/07 3:03 AM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

the spotlight is usually occupied by the lesser lights. The great ones seem to work in obscurity and I don't know if this will change or not...

This seems taoism, brings to my mind verse 15 of Tao Te Ching (there are many translations, here is one I found quickly)


The ancient Masters were profound and subtle.
Their wisdom was unfathomable.
There is no way to describe it;
all we can describe is their appearance.

They were careful
as someone crossing an iced-over stream.
Alert as a warrior in enemy territory.
Courteous as a guest.
Fluid as melting ice.
Shapable as a block of wood.
Receptive as a valley.
Clear as a glass of water.

Do you have the patience to wait
till your mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving
till the right action arises by itself?

The Master doesn't seek fulfillment.
For only those who are not full are able to be used
which brings the feeling of completeness.


... the flaw

9/8/07 2:55 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

what is wounded, what is flawed, what is emptied...

i feel emptiness is a magnet, the temptation is often to fill it with something unworthy of it instead of what it is meant for.

i used to feel emptiness as a curse, now when it arises, it does not bother me, i know that what fills it is coming, and to wait for it, not to try to plug it up.

i love my empty spaces.

9/8/07 3:05 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The great ones seem to work in obscurity and I don't know if this will change or not..."

Usually obscure, I agree.

Whether that will change, I would hazard, Not at this time. Although I think that it could, potentially. It'd be interesting to see what happens. :-)

9/8/07 3:19 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The Master doesn't seek fulfillment. For only those who are not full are able to be used which brings the feeling of completeness."

Very nice connection. And can be a very subtle issue. :-) Thanks for finding that.

9/8/07 3:21 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"what is wounded, what is flawed, what is emptied...
     i feel emptiness is a magnet, the temptation is often to fill it with something unworthy of it instead of what it is meant for."


I think that you have a real feel for what you're writing about. Good writing, too. I was trying to write last night about how I felt the dark night of the soul can be "curiously magnetic" at the end, so I'm struck now that you used the word "magnet". I was considering the notion that the magnetism is the call to new alignment. I can see how your bringing up the imagery of Promethean suffering in the other thread this morning powerfully illustrates the theme, too. Thank you. :-)

9/8/07 3:43 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Oh I love this. I am closer to Taoism than any other philosophical-spiritual system. Beautiful translation.

Do you have the patience to wait
till your mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving
till the right action arises by itself?


The idea of not seeking fulfillment is fascinating. I will ponder this. Really good. It's seeing the correctness in emptiness too. They are equal.

Can you remain unmoving till the right action arises by itself? I totally love this. My MO.
Thank you mpk, as always.

9/8/07 4:01 PM  
Blogger jm said...

i feel emptiness is a magnet, the temptation is often to fill it with something unworthy of it instead of what it is meant for.

i used to feel emptiness as a curse, now when it arises, it does not bother me, i know that what fills it is coming, and to wait for it, not to try to plug it up.


Oh oh oh.....

9/8/07 4:02 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Whether that will change, I would hazard, Not at this time.

I agree.

I was trying to write last night about how I felt the dark night of the soul can be "curiously magnetic" at the end, so I'm struck now that you used the word "magnet". I was considering the notion that the magnetism is the call to new alignment.

You know my view of magnetism. Any chance of seeing some of this writing, kadimiros?

These thoughts are exactly for me right now. The emptying. Gladly. I stopped reading blogs for this reason. To empty my mind for a moment. And now I see why. The above words are the replacement I've been seeking. It all works out.

9/8/07 4:07 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I've been sort of a Taoist for a long time. I like their 'take it or leave it' approach to everything. I know of no other philosophy that really lives the equality of all circumstances. Non-importance. I see people around me in extremes of reaction to that which is really nothing. Not what is really happening. This is not for me. I'd like to figure out a way to circulate without reacting to the things they do.

I've struggled in the last few years trying to decide whether or not to break my obscurity and give importance to success in society. I fundamentally don't care about this. The Taoists were in favor with society at times, then out. When out, they gracefully retreated, probably relieved.

So after these thoughts today, I've decided not to worry about it. Just continue as is. I will be the same either way, in or out. Matters not at all.

9/8/07 4:15 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"You know my view of magnetism. Any chance of seeing some of this writing, kadimiros?"

Heh, it's not finished. I have to let it percolate. I gave up after a bit. I've tried to write about it before, too; this time was better. Maybe it has to be recast in mythic format, like some of my wilder dreams. I've done better with it when I did it as a set of nonverbal color illustrations. The Gemini art teacher kept them and some of my other pieces, planning to publish them as part of a book she was writing. However, she's moved a few times, and I've lost track of her. She's had other books published, but I don't see the one that she told me she was planning.

Some experiences are interesting in how they can seem to acquire more depth over time. My guess is that many of the depth/peak experiences that people have are like seeds that grow and have many offshoots.

"I've struggled in the last few years trying to decide whether or not to break my obscurity and give importance to success in society. I fundamentally don't care about this."

Some of my clients are incredibly attached to, and protective of, their careers and reputations. I just play along, so to speak. That is good for me. I do learn from it all, though not as they might think.

9/8/07 6:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Some experiences are interesting in how they can seem to acquire more depth over time.

Exactly what I was referring to in my post on memory. The riches of life. The real wealth. Our experiences. A lot of false riches steal from this depth perhaps.

The view of success is a great subject. A good thing to discuss. I'd bet that in conversations some surprising things would be revealed about what we really think.

9/8/07 6:17 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

you are very welcome kadimiros :-), what a great place this is, thank you all.

9/8/07 9:43 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm so glad you're here, mpk. I was thinking about you awhile ago and the unique positive energy you bring. I'm really glad others agree with me.

9/8/07 10:13 PM  
Blogger kj said...

mpk is aces. @;-)

10/8/07 6:22 AM  

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