Wednesday, August 01, 2007

Hypocrisy. Chapter 3

Pisces and the aftermath of Saturn-Neptune
Subconsciously labeling fear as security is a theme of this era.
Nathan
There are countless books, speakers, teachers, self-professed gurus, well-intended metaphysicians, and many eager people in the forefront these days talking about shifts in consciousness and human spiritual evolution. In reality, this forward motion is ongoing. Evolution is a slow and steady process and is cast in stone as part of human survival. This young species will progress as always, and an important part of the procedure is the individual's personal moral development.
The sign of Pisces is one of the least understood in astrology. It's the end of the wheel where one ideally reaches the maximum in wisdom and spirituality through all the trials, tribulations, sorrows, and sufferings of the previous 11 signs. One is ready to release his attachment to earthly circumstance and the duality that always accompanies it. But before that can be achieved, there is often extreme dichotomy in Pisces and the guilt, shame, degradation, and humiliation can be of great magnitude, something people don't like to acknowledge or talk about. They attach it to outside people and events, as we've been discussing in relation to fear. Or they prefer to label it compassion, something not fully understood by many modern spiritualists. The problems of self knowledge and forgiveness are vast, so I will begin with this piece and proceed slowly as they relate to the sign of Pisces. Many of the world's difficulties are related to this blindness within that stalls understanding on a personal level, all translated to the collective condition. No amount of effort to change the outside structure will make the human more compassionate, kind, and loving. It's an arduous path to self knowledge and it takes courage. The north node and Uranus are in Pisces now, and although they won't solve the problems in any massive way, they can help us in small ways individually.
Abuse and punishment go together with Pisces as intense humiliation and abnegation of power are sometimes part of the road to genuine humility. The Saturn-Neptune opposition brought this lesson home, which began with the entrance of Uranus in Pisces in 2003. The square to Pluto in Sagittarius illuminated the connection to the world's religions and their failures, indicated by the selection of the current pope of the Catholic church, a Pisces rising, the symbol of weakened hierarchical religious power. The 29 degree Pisces war in Iraq in the birthplace of civilization is also part of the lesson.
In the United States, the political malaise has always been here but these times have revealed it naked in the light, as the fall of the Twin Towers stripped away pretense. Never has it been more obvious how cruelty is used for obtaining a seat in the halls of power. Insult and degradation are the techniques, and this is applauded by the public as one abuse follows another and the sport continues unabated. I do sense, however, a growing dissatisfaction with the game.

Let me give you one example of our predicament and the ethical hypocrisy we're dealing with. The Vice President of our nation, Richard Cheney is an Aquarius with a Moon in Pisces. People like to applaud the compassion of Pisces, but seldom have I seen more hatred thrust at a man than has been at this man. He obviously is representing the downside of Pisces and reflecting something in every person that is very very hard to face. It's no mistake that the torture issue is so popular now. The prisons. Pisces and the opposite side of loving embrace. We can add the President's Sun-Saturn in the 12th house. Removing these men will do absolutely nothing to solve the problems until the identification is found in each person. Pisces can be as cruel as it is kind.

The culmination was reached when Cheney shot his friend in the face, a Pisces. I witnessed in horror the delight, euphoria really, of the crowd on the left and the hope that the man would die so Cheney would get his due. Almost every Cheney hater felt this. Is this compassion? Forgiveness? Spirituality? Love? It's actually natural human behavior, but until this is recognized and owned, we will have more Dick Cheneys in power. Hoping for suffering to happen to another, no matter what they've done, is problematic on a spiritual path. Hatred adds to the problem. Not that they shouldn't exist, but they should be labeled accurately, and honesty with one's self is the only solution. Also the recognition that these experiences are necessary to evolve. One must know. These players are preparing to leave the stage while we move on in our evolution, enriched by the experience, as difficult as it was for many.
Self-forgiveness is the hardest way to redemption and freedom. When the NN leaves Pisces for Aquarius, Saturn will be making it's first retrograde in Virgo, Pluto will be at 29 Sagittarius , square the 29 Pisces point, and Jupiter will be entering Capricorn to the day. The new Aquarian emotional detachment with the Saturn emphasis will be a chance to put these lessons into practice, and perhaps the beginning of a release from the "evil" leaders necessary for our advancement.
There is a lot to learn on the subject as these Pisces transits finish and the Saturn-Neptune lessons come into focus. The passage of Saturn through Virgo will be pivotal. Virgo is purity of body and mind, Pisces, of the soul. Here lies an opportunity to awaken the underlying real compassion and spiritual kindness on the heels of these tragedies, before these archetypes leave to make way for new lessons and exciting beginnings in Aries.
Tonight an exceptionally beautiful Pisces moon rose in the evening sky and took over the whole night. I don't recall ever seeing one like that here before. I got to thinking that maybe the full spectrum of Neptune and Pisces is reaching us here on earth.

62 Comments:

Anonymous The_Ninth_Immortal said...

Yes, I've always been highly suspicious of the overly-referred to "compassion" of Pisces.

Not that it can't be true, but I have more than enough experience of my own, supposedly un-Piscean cruelty and ruthlessness that has manifested in times of duresss.

On the other hand, perhaps that's just my Saturn-Pluto square ;)

More seriously though, you'd think if Pisces is the last stop in the wheel of 11 other earlier signs, doesn't it make sense that it would have picked up at least a smidgeon of (perhaps even a 'taste' for) the vices and dark side of its precedents?

1/8/07 7:40 AM  
Anonymous Elena said...

It's though this essay that I sorta understand the meaning of Pisces. It is the embodiment of the ying-yang energy. It is to me , the full acceptance of your shadow-self, the integration of id, ego and super-ego into a fully functioning personality. That is why I have never wanted to be a Virgo- being the Pisces opposite, it is separation of the good and bad-not letting them be expressed. Virgo is a sign of extremes, at least to me. I's "either, or", never "and." Although it's called an earthly sign, I fell like its not. Its more like it's in limbo between heaven and hell, while Pisces goes in-and-out of both.

1/8/07 12:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Ninth, I think Saturn-Pluto is sometimes erroneously maligned as being excessively cruel. I must delve into it. I've got the conjunction:-)

Pisces has no holds so the extremes are manifest. What I've noticed most of all is the coverup of the low side and the connection to sadomasochism.

Pisces is associated with the saint and sinner syndrome. There's a reason it rules prisons, too. The madonna-whore thing is major. So sometimes Pisces have experienced a lot of abuse and sometimes they deliver it, although the sublime upside is there too. The two fishes represent the duality to me. Most Pisces I know are kind to me and I love Neptune, but then I've been aware of the fullness for a long time.

You're right. The total experiencce of life is there so it does make sense that vices are there too.

It's no mistake that we had these extreme leaders during the Pisces times. My hope is that we are dealing with it and will be able to release the shadow to move forward soon. The NN is the ace.

An important part of it all to me is the recognition of real compassion. Not for everyone, suffering with others. It doesn't come easlily.

1/8/07 1:01 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Elena, this is a very very very interesting comment.

I agree about the yin-yang.

the full acceptance of your shadow-self, the integration of id, ego and super-ego into a fully functioning personality

I agree with this too, and I think this is why the negative traits are so prominent sometimes as the shadow is exposed.

This is what fascinates me and I've never heard it before. Your comments on Virgo. Sheds a new light.

Virgo is a sign of extremes, at least to me. I's "either, or", never "and." Although it's called an earthly sign, I feel like its not. Its more like it's in limbo between heaven and hell, while Pisces goes in-and-out of both.

Ultra fascinating comment and I'm going to ponder it. I always knew there was way more to Virgo than commonly thought.

What you said about Pisces going in and out of heaven and hell explains it perfectly.

1/8/07 1:10 PM  
Anonymous The_Ninth_Immortal said...

Wish I visited heaven a little more often. I seem to have a permanent little pied-a-terre in hell, where I find I have to put in an appearance far more than I'd personally like. :)

1/8/07 1:22 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

You are so wise, jm, and so right on target. I've come to realize as well over the course of the past year really, that our leaders seem to be little more than a reflection of the collective subconscious nature and wishes of our society.

There's an old saying that goes "the people get the leaders that they deserve". I always thought that was pretty harsh and shortsighted, but I am thinking now that there may be something to it.

It is actually very easy to hate Bush and Cheney for all of the wrongs they've committed and the destruction that they've spread around the globe during the past seven years. But who is willing to own up to their part in this mess? Who is willing to admit their own capacity for also condoning and spreading destruction, terror, chaos and death?

The United States believes itself to be a wonderful and righteous nation, perhaps the greatest of all time. But we've collectively turned a blind eye and a deaf ear to all of the wrongdoings we've committed since our founding, among them war, slavery, genocide, and exploitation, in effect separating the light and goodness from a suppressed darkness. But all of that suppressed energy doesn't disappear. It eventually works its' way out to the surface, expressing itself in a far more destructive form than if we acknowledged it in the first place.

Not one of our leaders were totally good men. From politicians to priests and movement leaders. They each had their wrongdoings and shortcomings. But we often elevate them to the status of perfect, pure-hearted gods who can do no wrong.

But now we have Bush and Cheney who are forcing us to see things and truths about ourselves, things that were with us all along, but that we can no longer deny. And the very basis of America is now starting to come into question. Are we really the people and the nation that we have always clamed to be?

In Bush I see the side of America that is so proud to the point of crassness and arrogance. The wilfully ignorant fool who is smug in his ignorance, not caring whether or not his comments and actions offend or put-off neighbors and would-be friends, and disregarding their perspectives entirely, except where they conveniently meet and match his own.

In Cheney I see darkness itself, specifically secrecy, conceit, manipulation, a lust for power and dominance, anger and vindictiveness towards anyone who challenges him on these moves, sadism (i.e. torture) and any other end which justifies the means. He fosters such a visceral reaction in people because he represents the dark side that all Americans have, but few are truly willing to own up to and acknowledge.

I could add Rove as well as a representative of manipulation, slander, lies and propaganda being used as a more overt anything-goes means to justify a desired end. Again, something that Americans are uncomfortable in owning and acknowledging.

I also agree that removing them from power won't truly change things, UNLESS the American people have truly awakened to their own suppressed darkness manifest in the forms and methodologies that these men represent, and take ownership of that darkness. If this were a healthy nation with an acknowledgement and balance of both light and dark tendancies, a George Bush (either one, really) or Dick Cheney would never have a ghost of a chance of making it into office of any sort, or any position of power. People would immediately recognize them for what they were trying to pull off, and their careers would be over before they could even begin.

Now that I think about it, perhaps Bush and Cheney are early manifestations of the U.S. Pluto Return, exposing the past cycle of our Plutonian shortcomings?

1/8/07 1:25 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

I also wonder if a lot of the "light-darkness" issue in this country is more fundamental to Western Civilization itself, as rooted in Christian/Biblical ideology? The whole idea of "good" being separated from "evil". In the Eastern ideologies, "evil" is generally looked upon as a deviation from balance, whereas in the West, "evil" is something you suppress. Interesting difference in perspectives there.

1/8/07 1:28 PM  
Anonymous Elena said...

glad you are amused by my thoughts, and shame on you for such a in interesting topic, cause I have been pondering it all day.I think its weird that Virgo and Pisces aren't so different/extreme as the other polarities, like Aries-Libra et all. The martyr, maddona-whore is present in both, and Ithink they both have the same psychological make-up. I almost wish that Virgo was sadistic, and Pisces masochistic, rather then having them both be masochistic. ;-)
And what you said about Pisces, the 12th house and self-acceptance for me right now is PIVOTAL. I have almost all planets about to pile up in the 12th house, and I am in a place where I have to accept things as they are, mourn them, and move along. The pitfall of Pices is wallowing in that self-pity for too long, and not making peace with sad events.Th e Pisces that I know don't use drugs to escape, they use them to prolong the wallowing. Virgo on the other hand (from personal experience) is about denial. Denial of sadness (hence the OCD cleaning of dishes, when all you fell like is curling up and crying).
I don't know... I'm getting kind of confused by my writing. hope you can make sense of it!!

1/8/07 1:45 PM  
Anonymous Elena said...

oh and also sorry for going off topic a bit with Pisces and politics. my bad! ;-)

1/8/07 1:47 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I seem to have a permanent little pied-a-terre in hell

LOL. I think we all do, really. Some admit it. This fuels the creative need, I think, 9th. So maybe this is clearing the path. sun-Jup too. Jupiter inflates the Pisces characteristics. The Mars quincunx the asc is interesting too. I'd like to look at that.

He fosters such a visceral reaction in people because he represents the dark side that all Americans have, but few are truly willing to own up to and acknowledge.

That's Cheney exactly, neo. It's fascinating. Bush representing our USA Cancer planets and Cheney, our Moon in Aquarius. I feel strongly that this is an awakening. Both are being transited heavily soon.

The USA has Neptune on the MC so she's never been able to see her public image clearly, and the world has romanticized us. Especially after WWII when we were the saviors. We dipped dramatically after that. Now some balance will be established, I think with our Saturn return.

I don't have a problem with my country. They're all mixed bags and I like this one. I'd go through the hard times with anyone I love. Maybe the Neptune has encouraged us to make heroes out of ordinary men before, so this had to happen to balance all of that. I wasn't impressed with the others who have become icons.

There is so much here. Will be back in a second to continue, especially on the religious ideology as it translates to the political.

In some ways, I think the sickness of the country is exaggerated as part of this Neptunian duality. No doubt that Cheney's Moon figures in. For a long time I've felt that things weren't that bad here. Historically speaking they're not.

1/8/07 1:54 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Virgo on the other hand (from personal experience) is about denial. Denial of sadness (hence the OCD cleaning of dishes, when all you fell like is curling up and crying).
I don't know...


I think you're on to something here. This is fascinating. I've been studying the cleaning impulse for a long time, and it's connection to self disgust. (When extreme). The problem of denial is a huge one since everyone does it in some way continually. We have to until ready. Be back in a mo.

1/8/07 1:59 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Off topic???? Never been a prob here!

1/8/07 2:00 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Wait a minute! You were exactly on topic!

1/8/07 2:00 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is important as we head to Saturn in Virgo opposite the Pisces.

Neo, we've had many bad guys in power. The fact that we see it is the difference now, which is the encouraging part.

I don't think it's Cheney's evil-doings as much as his emotional coldness. This scares the bejeeziss out of the people, yet we are the ones with the Aquarius Moon.

The whole idea of "good" being separated from "evil". In the Eastern ideologies, "evil" is generally looked upon as a deviation from balance, whereas in the West, "evil" is something you suppress.

I'm not certain there is really much difference in the end. It's the projection that exaggerates, as all societies make villians and heroes, both being neither. It's going to take a long long time to understand our subconscious impulses, but once they're exposed, I feel safer.

So in many ways, these leaders have brought me closer to security knowing this stuff isn't hidden for the time being. I think now is the time to talk about it all and come up with ideas about what we can all do together. The time for fearing them is past.

1/8/07 2:15 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...

Virgo is a sign of extremes, at least to me. It's "either, or", never "and." Although it's called an earthly sign, I feel like its not. Its more like it's in limbo between heaven and hell, while Pisces goes in-and-out of both.

That's a penetrating insight. I have experienced Virgo in this way before but never heard it characterized thus.

1/8/07 2:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Elena, I haven't run the chart yet, but it looks like a classic Pisces-Virgo dilemma for you. Agonizing over this guilt, goodness, service thing. Escape and usefulness.

With Saturn just about in Virgo, maybe people are a little upset (Moon in Pisces now), knowing there is work to do but now knowing exactly the tasks quite yet. There is no doubt that some of the chaos will subside.

Lots of guilt flying around and now comes the impulse to resolve some of it. NOW they want to end the war, but they're stuck in this thing of their own making. Everyone, until we get a few things straight.

Neo, The horrors that this country has perpetrated are only the collective representation of all our personal ones. If we look at ourselves through one day. How many people have each of us hurt?

1/8/07 2:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

That's a penetrating insight. I have experienced Virgo in this way before but never heard it characterized thus

Me neither, and this stopped me in my tracks. Especially the "limbo between heaven and hell" part.

I'm coming up with a theory about all the mutubles being dual, but the guilt-shame aspect of Pisces-Virgo is a standout.

The last Virgo I had a relationship with was exactly like what elena is describing.

1/8/07 2:28 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...

The last Virgo I had a relationship with was exactly like what elena is describing.

Me too! It's an old relationship at this point, having ended in 2001, but I haven't fully resolved it.

1/8/07 2:39 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Since doing the dishes doesn't seem to solve the problem, what can we do with these frightening impulses? The self disgust?

If you follow the wheel, Virgo comes after the full expression of Leo, sometimes highly uncomfortable, sometimes ugly. So Virgo pulls it back in in shame to rectify the character. But in Pisces, I think the ugliness can't be denied anymore. Maybe that's the hardship in virgo. Believing that one can clean it and cover it up. Pisces should come to the acceptance, but the downside is the prelude.

It's interesting that Virgo rues the digestive process of food, which is none too pretty.

1/8/07 2:42 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Me too! It's an old relationship at this point, having ended in 2001, but I haven't fully resolved it.

I'm curious. Mine is way older but remains vivid to this day. The interesting part is that this Virgo caught me in a fall and helped me through one of the hardest passages of my life. He helped me release my own stuff. None of it seemed to alarm him. But I'm alarmed now when I look back on it! I was not at my best, but he found the best part of me and tried to point me in that direction.

This is interesting.

1/8/07 2:47 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

I think you meant "rules the digestive process" but I suppose sometimes eating something that went bad causes Virgo to "rue" the digestive process. ;o)

1/8/07 2:48 PM  
Blogger jm said...

LOL joe!

eating something that went bad

It all kind of goes bad, unless you're really a detached yogi or something!

I've often beeen horrified at what goes on in the body and maybe this is what Virgo has to contend with. A lot on their shoulders.:-)

1/8/07 2:53 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...

Maybe that's the hardship in virgo. Believing that one can clean it and cover it up.

My Virgo ex had drug problems which led to the end of our relationship. On the surface everything looked great for career, image, social life. There was an adamant refusal to admit this part of the course could be wrong and no way for me to prove otherwise as everything else was so well controlled. The denial of the problem seemed plausible even to me(how could there be a problem when all surfaces are so polished?). In 2003 she died of an overdose near her solar return.

1/8/07 2:56 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is truly fascinating and a portent of what's to come. The interest in Virgo-Pisces is telling. We could be coming into some resolution with enthusiasm so high. Sometimes I think enthusiasm is the key to progress. Pluto and Jupiter in Sagittarius will square the configuration in the beginning.

1/8/07 3:00 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The denial of the problem seemed plausible even to me(how could there be a problem when all surfaces are so polished?). In 2003 she died of an overdose near her solar return.

Amazing. The same exact thing happened to mine without the death. He ruined his career and love relationship through drug use and when I met him he was down in the dumps. It was the same coverup when he was flying high with a career as a doctor and it all crashed not to be regained as far as I know.

Did you get any signs of the death? No wonder you're still processing.

1/8/07 3:05 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I am stunned at what little humble Virgo is bringing out. What joy if we could get some healing underway in the next years.

1/8/07 3:07 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...

Did you get any signs of the death?

Just no contact... I would occasionally get an email to which I might respond politely. Eventually there was nothing for well over a year. Then I found out what happened.

I'm starting to get something here regarding this discussion of Pisces\Virgo and compassion. To most who knew her, my ex was described as a compassionate person, would go out of the way to help you in need. Yet to me as an intimate partner... I experienced the darkness of the addictions as a terrible sad cruelty and irony. The ending of our relationship to me was absolutely final. I promised myself never to enter such a relationship again.

1/8/07 3:22 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...

Ok, enough of my personal life after this one last tidbit:

What lingers is a bit of regret. I know at the time I needed a complete separation. Yet if at that time I had been stronger, I could have perhaps remained a friend and a positive influence. I don't blame myself for what happened, I just wonder if I could have made a difference if I had had the strength and perspective to cut off the unhealthy part but still extend a healing and supporting friendship.

1/8/07 3:38 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I just wonder if I could have made a difference if I had had the strength and perspective to cut off the unhealthy part but still extend a healing and supporting friendship.

No. The ways of death are vast and impersonal only involving the person who's time has come. The idea of preventing anyone's death or changing the course of their lives for that matter, is more of our own personal control issues. Helping is a complicated thing, the point of this post. We have to know ourselves and our motivations to be most effective and to recognize when we can or cannot be.

This is one of my crusades. We never know another's karma and I believe we are remiss in trying to change the other's. If people want help, they let us know. The negative experiences are just as valuable and we all have them and need them. The ideal is to evolve through them.

I think this is largely what the suffering of Pisces-Virgo is about. How we use the experiences for progression. This is why the next years hold so much opportunity. To take the suffering of these last years and put it to use.

The uselessness probably leads to the despair associated with these signs, although in the end, it really is useless. But few of us are that advanced. We suffer instead.

1/8/07 3:59 PM  
Blogger jm said...

A lot of people help others to make themselves look good or hook on to others' tragedies to escape their own. Sometimes identification helps, sometimes it doesn't, but it's not usually full concern for the other. As I've said before, people say their hearts go out to the Iraqis but their money goes into weapons manufacture and petroluem products. How far does compassion go? Big spectrum.

I think this is the crisis in Virgo. Virgo and Scorpio, 6th and 8th, are the crisis signs and houses. I feel this is in preparation for the transpersonal spiritual part of the wheel.

In Leo the self and it's significance is the thing and the crash comes in Virgo when we realize we are not that powerful. Some of the service probably is the guilt of narcissism in Leo. It's traumatic to come back down and some deal with it well, some don't. All in preparation for the relationships ahead in the upper half of the wheel when we have to be aware and more cautious.

The hatred for the bad leaders cloaks self loathing. Some of us have used the experiences, some haven't. We'll see in the next few years.

1/8/07 4:17 PM  
Anonymous km said...

I'm new to astrology and don't know enough about my own sign - Virgo (Cancer rising) - to comment intelligently on the implications. But if it helps any, I don't think in "either, or, and" terms. For me, patterns rule - especially those connecting concepts on the edge of my fields of interest. In this respect, limbo [edge] may fit.

Wasn't limbo Dante's first circle of hell the place of sorrow without torment? Wasn't it in limbo that he found the virtuous and/or innocent, uninitiated [non-Christians, unbaptized] - the heroes and great minds of Greece, Rome, and Egypt? Seems to fit this discussion about Virgo and Pisces, doesn't it?

Denial equals fear. Ignorance is tantamount to paradise lost. Feeling transcends thought. These ideas resonate, as a Virgo with a midheaven and north node in Pisces!

I just want to say, as someone approaching my solar and second saturn return with what appears to be a grand cross looming, it's nice know that I have a place that feels like home where I can find some solace and respite.

Thanks jm for a thoroughly aesthetic, provocative, fascinating blog. Thanks to all of you for making this such an enjoyable place for dialogue.

1/8/07 4:33 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Wasn't limbo Dante's first circle of hell the place of sorrow without torment? Wasn't it in limbo that he found the virtuous and/or innocent, uninitiated [non-Christians, unbaptized] - the heroes and great minds of Greece, Rome, and Egypt? Seems to fit this discussion about Virgo and Pisces, doesn't it?

This is a fantastic comment, km, and welcome to Raging Universe.
What a great point about limbo. I will ponder this. Sorrow without torment. The limbo idea is a good one, thanks to elena, who seemed to get all the Virgos chiming. Like temple bells.

I just want to say, as someone approaching my solar and second saturn return with what appears to be a grand cross looming, it's nice know that I have a place that feels like home where I can find some solace and respite.

You got it. I found this a good thing myself as I'm just recovering from my 2nd Saturn return.:-)

The NN in Pisces is amazing. I'll post you the link to the article in a second. I'm in the middle of cleaning, believe it or not, after all this talk. At this point, paradise is tantamount to a few clean spots in the house! I can suffer any time.

So glad you arrived, km. The poetic gets me through and you've got it.

1/8/07 4:53 PM  
Blogger Don said...

JM " the hatred for the bad leaders cloaks self loathing" - love your fire and clarity. thanks !

1/8/07 4:57 PM  
Blogger jm said...

LOL don! I've been creamed for saying this before. Every time. Times are changing. Thank you heartily.

1/8/07 5:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

km, here are your nodes.

SN in Virgo

NN in Pisces

1/8/07 5:13 PM  
Blogger meristem said...

Wanna add to the Virgo stew:
I am a Virgo and know and love an inordinate amount of Virgos (?? -we seem to attract each other).
One theme I recognize among the people I know -this was sparked into recognition by the fascinating input here- is self-sacrifice.
There seems to be a compulsion to give to others to the detriment of self. It may not always express to a dramatic degree but I often find that self comes last with many of the Virgos I know. And it's not necessarily motivated by high and noble reasons.
Self worth seems to be a, a what, a life-lesson maybe? Not sure I can put my finger on it.
Insecurity, meekness, desire for love and validation....
A form of masochism, as someone suggested?
The drug use/abuse, OCD, depression, etc...self-denial.
Hmm, thanks for the food for thought, all!

1/8/07 6:12 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

" the hatred for the bad leaders cloaks self loathing"

It really needs to be said, jm. People have a hard time facing it, but it really needs to be said.

I don't have a problem with my country. They're all mixed bags and I like this one. I'd go through the hard times with anyone I love

Spoken like a true Cancerian! ;-)

I don't think it's Cheney's evil-doings as much as his emotional coldness. This scares the bejeeziss out of the people, yet we are the ones with the Aquarius Moon.

Ironic, isn't it? Like seeing onesself in a mirror and being horrified at what is reflected back. That actually kinda brings to mind a certain villain in one of the 80s cartoons I grew up watching.

He wielded great power for evil purposes, but was often anti-climatically driven away by the hero in defeat upon viewing his own horrific reflection in the hero's sword or shield.

Things became a lot more interesting, however, when the villian finally accepted his image, and thereafter was not so easily repelled.

1/8/07 6:49 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

I'm just marvelling at the character development back in those days.

meristem said...
Neo, I left in 1983 and have been back, but not very frequently, since most of my humongous family is still there. With the passing of my grandmother though, I don't know that I'll get back as much.
I have really enjoyed seeing how much Cols. has changed over the years. For the better.
And they still have the best Fourth of July fireworks I've ever seen.


That's what I've heard from many other people as well. I'm looking forward to seeing it next year. ;-)

1/8/07 6:52 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There seems to be a compulsion to give to others to the detriment of self. It may not always express to a dramatic degree but I often find that self comes last with many of the Virgos I know. And it's not necessarily motivated by high and noble reasons.

I think there are logical reasons for this. The self denial in your list strikes a chord. As if being sent to the corner after the self significance of Leo. Can't have an ego this time. The ego gets submerged. I will ponder and try to figure out the logic.

1/8/07 9:35 PM  
Blogger jm said...

He wielded great power for evil purposes, but was often anti-climatically driven away by the hero in defeat upon viewing his own horrific reflection in the hero's sword or shield.

Things became a lot more interesting, however, when the villian finally accepted his image, and thereafter was not so easily repelled.


Interesting neo. The evil has to exist. I think the best we can do is move around it. The attention paid to it the last years has fed it, but the worst part was the exaggeration by the people. Kind of an over-mythologizing. They have nowhere near the power people gave them. They were stunned themselves I believe and the game got out of control.

Pluto, mythology, and excess. The overdramatic darkness and evil and all of that. We must have needed a bedtime story. I wonder if our next pres will be a bore.

1/8/07 9:43 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

It's interesting you say this, jm, because a letter to the editor in the newspaper here praises Cheney up and down as a great leader who stepped in when the nation needed him most. The moist, fawning praise for this man approaches mythologizing. Kadimiros made a comment once in my journal about the need for this kind of adulation. I forget what he said but it has to do with the basest urges. I'll go look when I have time b/c it's quite interesting. Or, Kad, if you're reading, maybe you can recap that comment.

Speaking of hypocrisy, there's more than enough to go around with this major bridge collapse here in Minneapolis. Politicians are blaming one another for not keeping up with maintenance, letting it decay, etc. Bush is blaming Congress, the governor is blaming the transportation crews, and so on.

Anyway, apparently Saturn squaring Neptune may have something to do with it.

2/8/07 9:37 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Joe, this is fascinating. Something got me up and I fired up the computer just as your comment appeared. The mythologizing of nobodys can take a lot of discussion. You're right. Kadimiros would have a lot of insight.

I haven't read the details on the bridge collapse, but it's very very interesting and a big portent of Pluto in Capricorn. I was hoping you'd clue me on everything.

This is about weakening infrastructure and it's going to be a big issue within the next years. I'm curious as to why Minn is in the vanguard of this. I'll look at the chart.

It's absolutely stunning how disaster equals personal accusation immediately instead of waiting to see why and what. Keep me posted. I don't have a TV so I haven't seen the pandemonium and destruction.

2/8/07 9:49 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

What's interesting is that the proponents of a massive, taxpayer funded baseball stadium were set to break ground on this behemoth, but the bridge collapse has postponed it. The timing is remarkable. The stadium is generally felt to have been foisted on us by big money interests, which would not have to pay much out of pocket.

8-1-07, 6:05pm, Minneapolis MN is the birth time for this chart, in case you were uncertain. Gotta go, more later!

2/8/07 9:52 AM  
Blogger jm said...

This is incredible joe. I have the chart for the consolidation to form the present city. Jupiter-Uranus in Cancer and Saturn in Capricorn. This Saturn in Cap is about city structures.

The Sun, Merc, and Mars are in Pisces. Moon was there yesterday.
Pluto in Taurus. Mars was just there.
Very very interesting about the stadium. let's piece this together. I'll look at the other chart.

There's a message here.

2/8/07 10:22 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Jeeze, did you see this.

Asc: 27 Sagittarius
Pluto 26 Sagittarius

Sag rules sports stadiums. Moon-Uranus in the 2nd house of money.
Venus-Saturn-Sun in the 8th house of investments.

Jupiter and Pluto in the 12th house side of undoing.
Mars was exactly quincunx Pluto. Pluto was just about to get out of the 12th but didn't.

Will ponder.

2/8/07 11:00 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I need to know more. The NN was in the 2nd with an almost exact conjunction of Moon-Uranus.

Was there a question about whether or not this would be a good thing financially for the town?

We'll discuss it later. I'd like to follow this story.

2/8/07 11:18 AM  
Blogger Neith said...

I know I'm coming in late in the stream here but just have to tell you how much I LOVE it when you start slicing & dicing the hypocrites!! Some were born to take on all the sacred cows and you are surely one, jm! :-D

One teeny comment on the downside of Pisces . . . if they start down the slippery slope pursuing sensations, it's very easy for them to become the submissive in a S/M scenario. And that's all about controlling in a rather nasty way . . .

2/8/07 2:30 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Neith. The angel in you is coming through.

After my experience at Astroworld and other places I got terribly nervous about my iconoclasm. I think it's important and I didn't know how to proceed after a lifetime of it. Some love it, some hate it. Hypocrites especially have gotten to me. And others stay so mute. I can't bear it.

So I'm so glad to get this encouragement. You have no idea. I'm back on the horse in a big way and I'm willing to take the consequences. Maybe these rather unpleasant experiences helped toughen me. I've just gotten started.:-)

if they start down the slippery slope pursuing sensations, it's very easy for them to become the submissive in a S/M scenario. And that's all about controlling in a rather nasty way

You are so right. Another thing people don't like to face. We can do it!

Big Hugs and Kisses:-)

2/8/07 2:42 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Was there a question about whether or not this would be a good thing financially for the town?

Gods, YES. The public clearly said it did not approve of the way the city was pushing it on us. The big money interests sneaked it through somehow... I forget how but we're stuck with the bill, as usual. Maybe -pd- can comment on that.

BTW, Pat and -pd- both comment on this disaster over at PiChron in response to my initial comment in the entry "Cats Are From Neptune..."

What else would you like to know?

2/8/07 2:45 PM  
Blogger jm said...

That's good for now. I want to follow it becuase of the whole issue of how we're spending our money. This will be a major event in the Pluto beginnings.

2/8/07 2:51 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

That's already being covered in some places.

"The Minnesota Department of Transportation said in a May 2006 report that inspectors saw fatigue cracks and bending of girders that lift the approaching span, according to the local ABC-TV affiliate."

"WASHINGTON -- President Bush yesterday proposed deep cuts to federal healthcare, education, and transportation programs, searching for new money in the federal budget to pay for increasingly costly defense programs and the war in Iraq.

-- Boston Globe, Feb. 6, 2007."


Report Card for America's Infrastructure

2/8/07 2:57 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

OMG, jm! Venus rx involves re-examining how we spend our money!

2/8/07 3:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yup. The insanity is clear with this event. The war is lost, money is going down the drain and people are getting the message. There is no way they can continue to cut spending on the health of this country. This event will penetrate and reverberate in the collective psyche. It's different from Katrina which had a more storybook feel to it. This is serious, or will appear that way to the public. One thing, though, is how important it's going to be for the cities and states to take things into their own hands. So the next months in your town will be telling.

As I figured, when Saturn goes into Virgo and Pluto gets to Cap things are going to take a markedly serious turn.

So the fascinating thing about this chart is all the planets in the 2nd and 8th houses. Money.

2/8/07 3:10 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And OMG we were on this together. And Virgo--maintenance and repair!!!!!!
OMG!

2/8/07 3:12 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Aren't you glad you're an astrologer? This is first time for you..experiencing a big event metaphysically.

2/8/07 3:14 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

lol why do we even profess complete amazement about how this stuff works?

2/8/07 3:14 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is why I've talked so much about the 29d Pisces and the Iraq war. Futility, craziness, confusion. We have to start thinking about the change in direction. This is big,

AND-- I just realized!!!!!!
A BRIDGE!!!!!!!! With Pluto in the GC.

2/8/07 3:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

as I said, the Pisces planets of Minneapolis and the Saturn in Cap fit beautifully. The end of saturn-Neptune and the start of Saturn-Pluto. First Uranus, though to shake it loose.

Minn's got a Moon in Scorpio, too, so we'll see how the reconstruction goes with Saturn in Capricorn. Very interesting.

2/8/07 3:20 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Am I ever! Last evening also, my renter wanted to know about his chart so I plugged it in along with his GF's chart. It's interesting. he has a stellium (Sun, Chiron, Mercury and Jupiter in Aries in the 8th)
and she has a stellium (Venus, Saturn and Jupiter in Libra in the 9th, and Pluto in Libra in the 10th). I don't understand it all, but I did wonder why he didn't have much of a childhood, being the son of missionary parents: well, his Neptune in 4th house Sag indicating indistinct parental roles in the field of faith and religion.

2/8/07 3:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

lol why do we even profess complete amazement about how this stuff works?

That's the ecstasy
of it! It stays amazing forever. Goose bumpy until eternity.

2/8/07 3:22 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Neptune in 4th house Sag indicating indistinct parental roles in the field of faith and religion.

Absodamlutely!

Joe, you are really getting it. I am thrilled. I told you it would start to gel after awhile and now you're really cookin'. It really isn't that complicated. Just the way you read that Neptune was easy and perfectly accurate. The main thing with learning is to relate it all to the people in your life.

I love doing this with you and I perceive time as endless, so we can take our time and cover what ever your little heart desires. People, places, events. It's a joy for me to experience your learning.

Onward we go!

Let the bridges tumble!!!!

2/8/07 3:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The further implication of the Neptune in Sag in the 4th is the problem with it. That's why it shows up. Some have missionary parents and it won't show in the chart. But in this case, he probably was adversely affected by their zealousness. And Aries is the crusader, but not hypocritical.
We can pursue it all.

2/8/07 3:31 PM  

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