Monday, August 13, 2007

Saturn to Uranus

Saturn is just about to enter Virgo and the people are ready. It will be the start of the Saturn-Uranus opposition. I was reminded that Chiron is thought of as a bridge between these two entities.
Saturn builds walls and boundaries, and Uranus moves the individual beyond these boundaries into new dimensions, innovative mental territory, and utopian glimpses of the future. A space adventure away from ordinary life on earth, so well established by Saturn. The isolation imposed by the rigid boundaries is necessary for self-improvement, until the time comes to move beyond the constructs to engagement with society in a more expansive universal way. Uranus comes to break up the established order. How this is achieved is unpredictable.
There are many ways to get beyond the wall. There can be a violent breakthrough. There can be a methodical taking apart, sometimes after sudden disruption of some kind. There can be flight above or movement around it, or there can be a dematerializing of a sort and passage right through. I sometimes think that Saturn knows this will happen and possibly builds the walls with the passage in mind, leaving a weak point as we talked about. Do we sometimes miss the way through?
Chiron and Suffering
This connects to the other discussion about the cracks and weaknesses between the rocks being an opening to what is beyond Saturn. Chiron is one of those cracks between those rocks...... Don
The one thing I'd like to see managed is the fixation on the raw pain you mentioned. I think this is one of Chiron's teachings. We live with it. Use it. Trying to find the people who caused it and inflicting punishment have never ever worked. Many people are crying over things that happened long ago, and miss the fact that there is raw difficulty right now to deal with. If attention is paid, maybe the past suffering would ease. There is a mechanism in humans to diminish this ongoing suffering in between bouts.....Jm
What facets of being human compel us to evolve and take things into ourselves instead of projecting and condemning those outside? The perfect example you deal with frequently is people with self loathing who hate the evil authorities. This is where I see Sagittarius and Jupiter at their best, when insight and the higher mind are turned inward to injest and digest shadow projections....Don
I remember vividly as a child one summer in camp when I was chosen to do a song and dance number. The song was Me and My Shadow, and it was done in cane and top hat style with one of the other kids as my shadow, as I recall. A very very memorable moment.
I'm convinced that Chiron is about teaching that suffering is not inflicted gratuitously, but meant to instruct. When a person opens up to cosmic dimensions there is a tendency to forget the pain. This is Chiron, who didn't complain about his wound. He found remedies. I've experienced this often when I'm in pain and go out in the world among people. I often forget about the hurt. So Chiron isn't concerned with opening old wounds. Just keeping them. He's interested in education and passage to broader dimensions understanding the place for pain. And I think Uranus frees people somewhat from the restrictions of these earthly wounds, the Saturnian reminders of limitation, as they leave their bodies to an extent in search of mental connection.

One aspect of this transition is the importance of authority and how it relates to inner and outer government. In Capricorn, the individual is supposed to learn self-discipline and often obedience to a hierarchical structure. A boss, a manager, a higher power. In Aquarius, the inner authority changes to synchronize with the good of the whole group with equal distribution of control. This is just ahead. The outer governments have failed as they always do, as they are supposed to do. But the new development is the growing awareness among the people of the failure. In the immediate times coming, with the north node in Aquarius, it will be a perfect chance to realize that governing from within will project to governments without. I'm going to go into the inner government concept in depth.

115 Comments:

Blogger Don said...

jm, as much as i enjoy the discussion - the communication in the images you present is equal to that in the words exchanged and shared - perhaps even better in some ways.
thanks !

13/8/07 12:24 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And thank you don. It's an orchestration and I never tire of it. Equally good for me is finding receptive eyes out there.

13/8/07 12:54 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Incredible timing, as usual. Philip Pullman, author of The Golden Compass had this to say about power:

“Every society has felt the tension between the life-giving force of awe and wonder, and the political power that comes as soon as you have human structures. As soon as you have human organizations, you have people who have got the power and who wield it over other people, and you have people who are oppressed by that power, or who want to join the power themselves. You’ve got all these human structures, which work against the natural human impulse, which is one of wonder and delight at being alive and being part of this beautiful universe.”

13/8/07 3:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Joe, speaking of timing as usual. Thank you, my friend. I always can use words like this within the daily harangue. Perspective is the key. We can do that if we're vigilant.:-)

Beautiful title. "The Golden Compass".

13/8/07 3:50 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Right on time. Karl Rove, the Capricorn representing the shadow Saturn is leaving just as Uranus heads in. He's not so dumb. Or we're not. Or it's not.

13/8/07 8:53 PM  
Blogger jm said...

What intrigues me tremendously is why is Uranus bouncing Saturn just before Pluto in Capricorn?
First Neptune, Now Uranus. A seasoned emmissary he'll be for Capricorn. Very interesting. I'm wondering a lot about the transit of Libra just ahead.

13/8/07 8:57 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

The culmination of the energy of my Saturn return was climbing the Zodiac route on El Capitan in Yosemite National Park. I had told Saturn I wanted to keep my childhood energy from drying up as it seemed to for others around this age and he told me the price was total commitment in an enterprise from which I might not return. At the time, and at my level of experience, completing the route was the hardest thing I had ever done in my life. Four days and 3 nights on the overhanging wall sleeping in a portable ledge.

From Zodiac:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos/Big_Wall/Nate_on_the_Nipple_24487.html

13/8/07 9:56 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

Last try...
http://www.tiny.cc/GrTaD

13/8/07 10:01 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is fascinating. More images, too, of this rock theme and the prelude to Pluto in Capricorn. Wherever Saturn dominates in our charts, we'll be facing the rock, though not as clearly as you. I think you are helping me prepare, mpk. I've got this kind of challenge ahead as Pluto squares my Mars. I will face it squarely. I'm ready.

This is perfect. The NN in the 1st house usually loves the physical body and loves to perfect it, especially with the node in Capricorn. This is the door to everything else. I run, swim, and wish I were a dancer, but my life hinges around moving my body beautifully through life.

It's so interesting to me to see another form of it. Saturn in Capricorn connected the 1st house is the body builder, not in the traditional way, but by meeting life with muscle, might, and conquering attitude, with the body as the main ally. There is incredible self discipline and an ability to consolidate will and strength. The weakness in the rock doesn't stand a chance in the end.

I am amazed at your awareness and how you used your Saturn return. I know very few people who are so conscious of it all, and you don't even know astrology?

If more people could use life as a path to self mastery, conquering fears and fulfilling potential, can you imagine how society would be? Maybe I'm dreaming but it would be better than obese and sick TV watchers, crying the government blues.

I am inspired. The sheer rock that lets us win and know ourselves. Pluto in Capricorn will be good for some.

total commitment in an enterprise from which I might not return.

Describes life pretty well.

13/8/07 10:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

El Capitan. The NN in the 1st. I am the Captain of my Soul.

13/8/07 10:25 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I really am astounded even though I've been through this a million times. The orchestration.

Here I am on the verge of this life changing Pluto in Capricorn to my Mars, Aries rising, and here comes the NN in Capricorn in the Ascendant with the sheer rock, saying, OK, I did it! Hardest thing I ever did, but I'm here to tell you all about it!

Now where was that giving line, again?

13/8/07 10:30 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I see it all.

13/8/07 10:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And thank you, mpk. I've bookmarked that rock.
Man alive.

13/8/07 10:36 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

I have wondered at times how much of my own natal energy has been influenced by Chiron, given that he sits next to my Sun and trine my Moon? Lately, I think quite a bit of it, almost as if some of what would be my more "expected" traits and characteristics have been eclipsed somehow, albeit for better or "higher-level" ones.

It wasn't always so. I admit that I was quite a bit of a "blockhead" when I was much younger, a Taurean tendancy I think that is more prevalent in youth (It gets a little better with age, for most of us anyhow!). There is a certain stubborness and resistance to change inherent there. But sometimes, even for a Taurus, some kinds of growth and change are necessary. Especially in youth.

What prodded me out of the blockheadedness was a lot of things. Real life facts and realities intervened and refused to be denied. A few friends contributed along the way. Even my mother helped out quite a bit.

I will tell you though that it was Chiron who not only prodded me along, but pushed me that one step further... into awareness and a search for answers. Higher awareness, and for truth and understanding.

In several forms he did this. Natally in my Eleventh House by pushing me to understand my social independence/isolationist issues. I've always been a bit of a loner and have had few truly close friends over the years. For a long time, I wondered if there was something wrong with me? Especially when watching how other people seemed to relate to each other so much more easily.

Today however, after much soul searching and interaction with myself and others, I've learned to accept my uniqueness and embrace that which sets me apart. I'm still mostly a loner, but perhaps there is a lesson there, in self acceptance and acknowledgement that comes before interaction, and at times integration with the rest of humanity? Perhaps one of the themes of Aquarian frendship?

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned here before, the transit Chiron made to my Vertex (the fated angle) and the most lovely young woman who showed up in my life at the very same time. That was the single strongest soul mate connection I've ever experienced before or since, and I told myself two things at that time. One, that she's the woman I could marry, and two, oddly enough, that I wasn't quite ready for her.

Say again?? I must have been dreaming through that whole experience, and the interactions I had with her, because I distinctly remember "waking up" in the days afterwards, but not just in an ordinary way. Upon doing so, I set out to find her, to do what I probably should have done at that golden moment: ask her out! But mysteriously, she was nowhere to be found. Nine months later when we finally did cross paths again, she was involved with the man whom she'd eventually marry.

I could certainly call that a wound, albeit a self-inflicted one. A very painful missed opportunity, one that certainly doesn't come around very often (Maybe 51 years as far as Chiron himself is concerned?). It however, has served as a certain driving force within me, towards the study of astrology, self-actualization, and even in Chironian fashion, to try and teach, counsel help and heal others.

Nothing will change the past, as much as I wish I could return in time to those special moments during that fated night in September. Perhaps I might have made a very different choice knowing and understanding what I now do. But, of course, therein lies the paradox: Perhaps I wouldn't be who and what I am now if not for the choice that I did make then.

Somedays it just all seems so stupid and foolish to me, and I do sulk about it. Other days, like more recently, I seem somehow, somewhere closer to acceptance, and the future seems to prevail -- much brighter than usual -- over the past.

14/8/07 2:13 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I admit that I was quite a bit of a "blockhead" when I was much younger

Neo!! No!

A Taurean tendancy I think that is more prevalent in youth

Damn! I knew there was a glitch.
Wait! I'm not in my youth. I'm safe!

But sometimes, even for a Taurus, some kinds of growth and change are necessary.

That about says it. Occasionally, you mean.
Seldom, really.

14/8/07 2:51 AM  
Blogger jm said...

The fixed signs are what they are. Fixed. Whatever that is.

Fixed:
Placed or fastened securely; made firm in position

Sationary or unchanging in relative position

Definite and unalterable

Provided with money, equipment, and possessions


Funk & Wagnall's Standard College Dictionary

14/8/07 3:14 AM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

For me, I think change really was necessary, jm. Painful then, yes, but necessary.

I do sort of like being fixed at my current level, though I will certainly continue to see more knowledge and understanding. I do have the higher awareness that I did not have before, and that is something that I truly value, even if it came at a cost.

14/8/07 4:03 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Natally in my Eleventh House by pushing me to understand my social independence/isolationist issues.

Thank you, Neo, for inadvertently helping me see something I had missed. I have Chiron in the 11th in Aries. I too used to wonder what was wrong with me. I enjoy spending some time with people, but mostly I prefer my solitude. I have not yet figured out how much of it is innate and how much of it is due to my disability, avoiding interaction b/c it's just plain difficult.

I also ponder the push/pull of the 11th and my four planets in Libra. Pluto and Venus reside in the 5th, although there does not appear to be an opposition between them and Chiron in the 11th.

14/8/07 4:09 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

I forgot to add that my 1st house Saturn contributes to the walls and separation, but less so as time passes. Altogether, there's a lot of isolation going on in that chart.

14/8/07 4:10 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Joe! You sound like an astrologer. That was fast. You knew almost nothing, wasn't it yesterday?, speaking of fateful meetings.

This is how the charts have always worked for me making them easy to read, as you just pointed out. The major issues are repeated, sometimes often.

Isolation-wall:

-Saturn in the 1st
-Chiron in the 11th
-Moon in Capricorn
-Moon square Uranus
-Saturn opposite Mercury, ruler of the Gemini 1st
-Saturn quincunx the Moon
-Saturn exactly quincunx the Sun to the degree

There are a few more but that about covers it. :-)

14/8/07 5:39 AM  
Blogger Tseka said...

m.p.k. that is an astonishing picture of the zodiac...13d????
Beautiful line there.

My ex a Capricorn and madman climber just had his second Saturn return. He opted for surgery on his feet damaged from years of climbing in too small shoes...Now he climbs better than ever. As a Cap he was never so agile nor graceful as others but there was no denying the mountain goat in him. He currently is blazing new routes in Nevada.

You guys will end up being the Fred Beckey or Salathé of this century. (i met John Salathé at the top of Yosemite falls when he was in his mid seventies, he led me on a hairaising, spitless, tour across slick rock on the face. It surely smacked a goodly amount of arrogance out of me.)

14/8/07 7:08 AM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Chiron in the 11th comments i find interesting, i have this also.

The Vertex point. Since i've been paying attention, everything they say about the "fated" connections seem to be true. Same with transits to the Nodes. My Vertex is conjunct my Virgo Moon and the Nodes are conjunct my AQ ASC|LEO DSC axis so the transits are often felt as familiar emotional-soul connections to others. Between those 20 degress of separation many lessons have been brought requiring integration of heart and mind, body and soul.

14/8/07 7:23 AM  
Blogger Tseka said...

JM your query some threads ago- re, the stars being connected to memory..

Our Sami joiker would say so. The moon and stars are our brother and sister; thought and memory.
In this poem which speaks of the cosmological view of the fenno-scandia culture, he writes:

the world of thoughts
moon
and stars

look my brother
sister, my sister

spring!

He tells us of the "rainbow bridge of enlightenment" and equates the connection to all "things" in this earthly plane.

But it it the wind (the spaces between -the white thread-outside time) who takes our heart (sun) by the hand and and leads us to our soul. The cosmic oneness beyond the rounded off life, you can see it in a circle which represents the repeating pattens.(aka the drumhead, the medicine wheel the astrological wheel etc)

14/8/07 9:49 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

With Tseka's comment, that's at least three of us "regulars" with Chiron in the 11th. Is that another pattern?

14/8/07 9:50 AM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

you don't even know astrology?

I'm working on that now and am just amazed at your entries and images on the Nodes. Do you plan to publish it in book form?

I've been trying to guide myself by inner compass since I was about 18, when I had an overwhelming "mystical experience" for lack of better term. It wasn't drug induced but in description it might resemble that. It was like I saw everything at once and afterwards I just couldn't function in the same way. A huge amount of information, too much for my brain, had flooded in.

At 21, to try to understand it, I studied for a while with a shamanka. She taught me some very practical techniques for dealing with and making use of the heightened awareness. I maintained those, but shut out most of the rest of the experience. Even reminiscing about it threatened my sanity. At this point, I know it's there, but I have to release and access it slowly because my mind can't handle it all at once.

I was astonished when I discovered a couple years ago that Astrology actually lines up to my inner source and can map it. Once I discovered that, it became clear that learning to map it is part of my path, it also helps me to prevent it from outbreaking too far, to where it could overwhelm me again. I need these maps, and now is the time for me to learn.

14/8/07 11:28 AM  
Blogger Tseka said...

m.p.k.
welcome home.
Your experience matches many who come here.

There is a lot of treasure in the archives.

14/8/07 12:43 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Well, well. Life delivers.

Chiron in th 11th all over the place. So in keeping with my teaching theory, this would explain why my nongroupiness doesn't stand a chance now. Very interesting. The power of numbers. The warrior loses the battle!

Thanks for the poetry tseka. It's been too long! I love his economy.

But it it the wind (the spaces between -the white thread-outside time) who takes our heart (sun) by the hand and and leads us to our soul.

There will some of this with the NN in Aquarius.

14/8/07 1:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Mpk.
I'm thinking of a book in time. Your reaction verifies the soundness of this plan.

What an experience you had. I think one is all it takes. Now things are beginning to make sense and why I immediately recognized your advanced incarnation from your first comment. This is so interesting.

I've been trying to guide myself by inner compass since I was about 18

I love the phrase "inner compass". It fits your Mars at 28 Pisces which indicates a mystical development and direction in your life, since Mars governs our actions and forward motion. I share this with my Mars-Neptune conjunction. With NN in the 1st which wants its own clear path, the Neptune confuses everything wanting us to go on this mystical journey in an empirical world, and doesn't cut a traditionally straight route. Backward is forward, and things like that. So the inner compass is a fantastic way of dealing with it. I need one right now!

it became clear that learning to map it is part of my path, it also helps me to prevent it from outbreaking too far, to where it could overwhelm me again.
I was astonished when I discovered a couple years ago that Astrology actually lines up to my inner source and can map it.


This is exactly what astrogoly is to me. A map, just like sailors use on the sea. Since we have the Neptune we go by feel or extra-sense a lot, and the map connects to this. As soon as I learned how to use it I was propelled into a world I never could have imagined.

You, tseka, and I have the NNin the 1st with the puzzle of relationships (Libra, 7th house placements) and how to fit them in and still travel our solo journeys. How to put them in a slightly secondary position. How to dominate and get our own ways entirely, which is next to impossible with a SN in the 7th. It can be done theoretically!

For me, when you talk about facing the rock, I see this NN come to life. The challenge of solitary self in a complex social world. The rock teaches.

So I am deligted with your stories of your experiences. Very very helpful. There is so much information in the chart and, by now, I read them well. So we can explore.

You arrived as a leader, and that alone is indicative of what's happening now. All NNs in the 1st are meant to be in the lead and the inner compass is definitely handy.

14/8/07 1:46 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is a very rewarding moment for me. To be surrounded by advanced people with the ability to articulate so well. I remember when I was 16, in Boston at my cousin's house during a wonderful summer evening back porch discussion with several of her friends, how the longing for great conversation had previously eluded me and was going to be a lifelong challenge.

I've found it in places, with individuals, but not quite like this. This convergence.

About a month ago I decided to act from my NN and cut out conversations I didn't want. Decisive NN action. Lo and behold.

Life delivers.

14/8/07 1:54 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

About a month ago I decided to act from my NN and cut out conversations I didn't want. Decisive NN action. Lo and behold.

Interesting. Very.

Before my show i decided to carry the silence of my studio/home with me. I coached myself on the long drive north. Practice silence.

The other crowed around drawn in.

Just the ones i was looking for, and i could receive.

New land for me.

14/8/07 2:01 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Omg, tseka. Wonderful. Thank you so much. I knew it.

I recall vividly you mentioning the silence when you got back but I didn't know about this conscious effort. Things are working out. Isn't it joyous to find the ones we're looking for? NNs are supposed to. Could that be what's ahead in my music audience? Heavens.

I must learn now. Learn it well.

14/8/07 2:13 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Practice silence.

And I don't even think it has to be literal. It's silencing of the fill that is useless. All the clutter. And the reach toward what I know won't work for me.

14/8/07 2:16 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It's all about the spaces. Your poet knows.

14/8/07 2:24 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Just as Kadimiros listens while he walks in the city's bustle, i listen to the wind. What Valkeapaa would call the space between.

Two days ago, while (cover you eyes jm) dusting, i "heard" an urge to look again for one of Valkeapaa's out of print books that i have been searching for these past many months.

I opened the computer and found the same two offerings far outside my budget. And just beneath was a listing on ebay. I went, and two breath-holding days later won a bid for a signed copy with an inscription to Washington state.

Now, with still a little breath-holding,i am waiting for it to fly home to me. Can you believe this?
Maybe the practice helps?

Learning to receive has been one of the tougher lessons in my life. Lots of stuff is going on over my south node /descendant/pluto right now.

It's silencing of the fill that is useless. All the clutter
beautiful. spacious. clear.

14/8/07 2:42 PM  
Blogger jm said...

LOL! M used to say, "Dust is the devil!"

Now, with still a little breath-holding,i am waiting for it to fly home to me. Can you believe this?
Maybe the practice helps?


It's all about breath. Breathing/taking in what we want. I'm with you on the receiving, one big lesson of the NN in the first. Even more than receiving. Taking without hesitation, guilt, and thinking always always always of the someone else. It's so hard. This attention to self. But it's the only solution and then the others will benefit more. It's not notdoing for them. It's doing for ourselves first and the rest follows automatically. Just wait till the Aries transit!

I think 1st NNs have sacrificed for many lifetimes. Dues are paid. Those of us who still have relationship conundrums need them to advance fully to the place of receiving into the self. The turning point came with me last year when I got pneumonia and realized I was drowning in other people's words. Probably when I started to stop reading seriously. At least for now. I don't get sick like this and it was an awakening. It translates to rejecting other parts, one of the biggest challenges of the NN. Doing the rejecting. I mean really doing it. No going back to the Libra compromise.

The habit is so deep of focusing on the other.

Wonderful about the books. Does that mean more verse is forthcoming in these hallowed halls? I'll need something to fill all this new empty space.

14/8/07 2:57 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'll look at your chart. Tell me what you sense when it starts to make sense!

14/8/07 2:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The biggest mistake 1st NNs make is thinking that by sacrificing for the other they are buying relationship. They wonder why it backfires all the time. The truth is, a SN in the 7th will never be without relationship they are such experts at it. The trick is letting it go on automatic pilot. No effort reqired. So we attract relationships that ultimately allow this freedom if we have the wherewithall to take it. We sometimes never even get there far enough to realize that they want us to do what we want to do. If only we could. It's amazing how well they all adjust when we really do this wholeheartedly. Not looking constantly at them trying to read their disapproval. It's our disapproval we're reading. And they know it!

14/8/07 3:07 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

This book is more a journal. It includes his joiks (poetry/songs) drawings and music (scores). All of it is one thing; his "singing" his life as aillohas (shaman- joiker)

The few glimpses i've seen of these in his native language are magic.

image
imagic

For you, lover of language.
He suggests to me that words are shamanic. The images of the world flow....we transform these images into words that can move an image from one to another...imagic. Each of us who offers words offers magic.

Careful
would be what my Salish homeland folk would say. Words have power.

silencing of the fill that is useless. All the clutter

again.

14/8/07 3:13 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Joe! You sound like an astrologer. That was fast. You knew almost nothing, wasn't it yesterday?

Well, it helps to have good teachers. :o) I still feel pretty green yet.

One question: Astro does not do a very good job of showing every aspect, but I can see that Venus and Uranus oppose Chiron, but Pluto and Mars do not, even though all four of the Libra planets are on the opposite side of the chart from Chiron.

About 10 years ago, I was feeling stuck and stagnant and looked into accupuncture to get unblocked. The accupuncturist noted how I was pretty introverted and solitary at the time. She thought it was interesting that my vocation was (and still is) human services. I replied that I felt compelled to avoid employment that was wholly impersonal, like computers, for fear of becoming completely separated from other people.

Evidently the Chiron 11th is counterweighted by the Libra planets. Maybe without those, the added weight of Saturn in the 1st would really have walled me off from everything.

14/8/07 3:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Each of us who offers words offers magic.

Again aussi.

14/8/07 3:24 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Having ascendant in Aquarius and NN in Pisces conjunct has flavored my relationships i think. When you speak of the long leash this is me. The tether is so faint in the day to day it has been barely perceivable.

Being alone has been very, very important my whole life.

People come in, they go out. Some i wish had stayed longer. Some less.

The some less has been the area i have needed to work. It is easier now.

I think: relational, not too much relationship -and that is who i have attracted for the most part

Now as to the healer side that is a completely different story. The dependencies that can form, one must be very alert to. A toughie for a long time.

Taking, another toughie. Growing up in such a poverty stricken place, i felt that taking less than my share would even things out. Of course it doesn't.

My son has been the best. How can one not be helped by, "dead rescuers, rescue no one?"

14/8/07 3:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Evidently the Chiron 11th is counterweighted by the Libra planets. Maybe without those, the added weight of Saturn in the 1st would really have walled me off from everything.

Exactly exactly excatly. I was going to add that when I made the isolation list, but you got it.

You will never be alone with all those Libra planets. And don't pay any attention to Chiron. He's different. Just a guide. A go-between. You can get it all from the main planets in the chart.

Plus, almost all your planets are in the relationship sector of the wheel. That's not the problem. The problem is being unafraid to go into yourself away from all the others to establish your identity. Saturn in the 1st.

There is often a fear that if you isolate they will disappear. I can assure they won't. They should, actually, sometimes.

The more you go on, and after the Cap transits, the less you'll need this human services thing and the more you will be able to be the detached Capricorn administrator attending to the group's needs with the Libra diplomacy. Your personal needs secondary.

Being isolated is not your problem. Enjoying the isolation is. Living your separation within the crowd, not always trying to recreate the SN Cancer familial bonds. You'll see. Cparicorn professinalism is around the bend. Saturn will be your great ally, even in the 1st. You will never be alone.

14/8/07 3:35 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Joe this is a very thought provoking comment.

Actually i just had a strong feeling pass over me that you would make an excellent accupuncturist.

Your ability to collate information and the correspondences is superb. Just what is needed plus sympathy with the strength of detachment.

Have you ever considered?

14/8/07 3:36 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

ha ha jm are we lining Joe up for a new career?

14/8/07 3:38 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The tether is so faint in the day to day it has been barely perceivable.

LOL! Faint is a great word for Pisces!

People come in, they go out. Some i wish had stayed longer. Some less.

Beautifully said.

I think: relational, not too much relationship

Will ponder. Food for thought.

I love the dead rescuer concept. He's so to-the-point, that one.
And this is the point. No matter what the past circumstances they don't alter the need to receive now. That could be part of the challenge. We NNs have to learn that by taking for ourselves we are not denying another. There is a built in providing factor with the NN in the 1st, meaning that if necessary we will automatically provide for others. It needs absolutely no work this lifetime. We are off the hook.

14/8/07 3:41 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The problem in your cse is the Mars-Saturn conjunction. But look at what that's saying? Libra. Others. Mars. Self. saturn. Learning to go for the self within relational circumstance.

14/8/07 3:44 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

He's so to-the-point, that one.
I figure it's one presentation of: sun in Pisces, Moon in Cap both in the anarectic degree. The final minutes...not to mention Neptune in the GC.

14/8/07 3:46 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Joe! A needle man besides a wordsmith.

Can you imagine? healing and speaking truth?

14/8/07 3:47 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Excellent point speaking of needles.

I figure it's one presentation of: sun in Pisces, Moon in Cap both in the anarectic degree. The final minutes.

That 29th degree is full of knowledge and it's the last chance to impart it.

14/8/07 3:49 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

But look at what that's saying? Libra. Others. Mars. Self. saturn. Learning to go for the self within relational circumstance.
ja, and opposite Jupiter in Aries in the first -with emphasis.

14/8/07 3:50 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm currently very very interested in the 29 moon in Capricorn. What happens to the pessimism and despair at that degree? The understanding of the ways of the world?

14/8/07 3:51 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yes. Jupiter in Aries. There is significance in this inflation of self to this extent.

If one looks at the setup, Mars-Saturn in libra, Jupiter in Aries, one could scratch one's head and wonder. The NN is the key to the box. Self wins.

14/8/07 3:53 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

ha ha jm are we lining Joe up for a new career?

:o) I never considered that one, Tseka. I wonder if you are picking up echoes of my Libra SO. He knows all the meridians in the body by instinct. It's uncanny.

14/8/07 3:53 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

What does anarectic mean in this context? The dictionary doesn't know that one.

14/8/07 3:56 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Let's figure. 29 Cap knows what's happening but they are ready to drop the burden. Yet a message has to be delivered before that can happen. What and how? How can it be done gracefully so that others can benefit?

14/8/07 3:56 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The dictionary doesn't know that one.

You can't ever fully count on the experts!

14/8/07 3:57 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Here's a question, Mars in libra in
detriment...the energies are less available, whereas Saturn is exaltted there and perhaps dominates the duo????
In the 8th the healer teacher role seems to be the pattern that has played out. And this often has been a feature of my personal relationships tho i didn't notice that at first.

Per Nick Campion:
Mars in the signs shows the individual's general energy level,
the way practical problems are handled, attitudes to men and
expression of the male psyche.

MARS IN LIBRA (DETRIMENT).
Energy is best used to restore harmony and balance, perhaps by developing artistic skills, or by reconciling people in conflict. Their aware-ness of opposing choices can lead to indecision or to an interesting range of experiences and skills in strategy.

14/8/07 3:57 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The anaretic refers to 29 degrees, one of my areas of study. Critical degree.

14/8/07 4:01 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

heh, the dictionary wants to tell me about anorectics. Experts indeed!

14/8/07 4:04 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

29 Degree Cap
At least in my son's case the pessimism is not there. He would say simply some things ARE.

Let's figure. 29 Cap knows what's happening but they are ready to drop the burden. Yet a message has to be delivered before that can happen. What and how? How can it be done gracefully so that others can benefit?

This was a very big deal as Pluto went over his 19+ asc.
He was dreaming of the war in Iraq before it started, holding dying children in his arms. 29 degree his Sun and the Iraq war Sun.
What helps? maybe Neptune in the GC and Uranus in Sagittarius in his twelfth which enhances the psychic and telepathic abilities but wipes away the delusion or the need to escape into drugs or lies. The strong connection to the collective. Some things just are and we face them. He does not believe in sugar coating.

Actually Kadimiros and he seem very, very similar in how and what information they present.

One thing i just thought of, as an infant, he used to wake me in the night, -chuckling, guffawing so loud...i would go in to check and he would be in an unrousable sleep.

14/8/07 4:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Mars in the signs shows the individual's general energy level,
the way practical problems are handled, attitudes to men and
expression of the male psyche.


I don't think it reveals the energy level exactly, but the expression of the male in the psyche and attitudes towrd men, a definite yes.

I have Mars-Nepune in Libra and I worship men. You have Mars-Saturn and you struggle for autonomy with them.

MARS IN LIBRA (DETRIMENT).
Energy is best used to restore harmony and balance


Yes.

The detriments and so on are superceded by the whole orchestration-story of the charts, so, of course, I don't use them. They confuse the issue. Absolutely unnecessary and they step into the "clutter" territory. the less clutter in interpretation, the more accuracy. It is not that complicated.

It all can be read in repeats.
In the 8th the healer teacher role seems to be the pattern that has played out

This is repeated in Sagittarius and the teacher, healer. The 8th is crisis management. Pluto in the 6th is another repeat.

The questions you ask hinges on a search for your identity, and hence, your application of energy and work. What exactly should you do? Well, guess what? NN in Pisces in the 1st? It's anyone's guess. The path for you is experimentation, maybe never coming to one decision. Doing whatever whim dictates. So it all comes back to this node. Who says you have to achieve specific great things? For whom? The play we do with Winston Moonbat on the threads is probably as close as it gets to "doing" in the Piscean mode.

So the Saturn probably doesn't dominate. It merely gives you some ballast as you navigate the Piscean waters in search of your lost self. Even finding her would probably ruin the fun. it's in the search.

Energy levels are notoriously low with Pisces. they're supposed to be. So energy isn't frittered away with CLUTTER!

14/8/07 4:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

tseka, my Neptunian compadre.
I have a lot of the same thing with my Mars-Neptune. Will I be a successful musician out in the world? I have absolutely no idea. And why? Because it's not important. I will if I will. If being the word.
I just want to exerience myself and life. Just live. No big deal. Nothing much to prove, really. To whom, anyway?

14/8/07 4:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Very very very good, tseka. This explanation of the 29. Excellent.

He would say simply some things ARE.

He is right.

The 29 Iraq thing is such a story. No one seems to believe it, but surprises are ahead. Let everyone absorb the futility and then we will move on.

One thing i just thought of, as an infant, he used to wake me in the night, -chuckling, guffawing so loud...i would go in to check and he would be in an unrousable sleep.

How precious.

14/8/07 4:24 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

I think the world view is different. Even if he sees really horrible things, knows them, he does not see them as bad or evil. There is some deep knowing that all is as it should be.

14/8/07 4:26 PM  
Blogger jm said...

He was dreaming of the war in Iraq before it started, holding dying children in his arms. 29 degree his Sun and the Iraq war Sun.

If those children are going on to their destinies and death is the passage why on earth would anyone want to stop the evolution? Maybe the living are the ones who need to be in those arms.

14/8/07 4:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

he does not see them as bad or evil. There is some deep knowing that all is as it should be.

Why is this so hard to understand? This undeniable fact.

14/8/07 4:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Many of us feel the suffering of the world. But if a person is going on and the death is painful to witness we have no way at all of knowing what the dying are experiencing. So it's ultimately selfish to try and hold them back calling it compassion. The compassionate thing to do would be to let them go where they want to go.

I learned this when my husband died, and believe me, I didn't want to part with him. I called him back once, so it seemed as he was trying to die. his eyes flew open and he ws startled. I then left the room for 15 minutes and when I came back, he was dead.

Eye opening for me.

14/8/07 4:33 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

If those children are going on to their destinies and death is the passage why on earth would anyone want to stop the evolution? Maybe the living are the ones who need to be in those arms.

What we grappled with on long nights then.

We would say that we are them.

And as them, connect in love. It is hard to express this..in a way that can be understood in words. In a way it is an offering of an apology for our part in this, for if we can see it we know we are of it.

A different version of
image
imagic

The apology is not for our action or inaction. And apology would not be the right word. A sense of soothe across this place so the pattern does not have to repeat again and again.

Let this one be ended. In. Love.

14/8/07 4:41 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Same thing with people hurting people. This is between them. We don't know the karmic factors.

We feel the pain and sorrow and do our best to alleviate it, but some folks have paths we can't understand. We can do harm by interfering. Torture and abuse are private rituals, involving both sides, and probably shouldn't be exposed on the screens nightly. Once is enough. It's prurient ritualistc behavior to be the voyeur, especially while eating and enjoying it like they did in the French Revolution. Then we are just as guilty. We all know about these acts. As long as we don't engage in them ourselves. We simply can't stop the violence in the world. It will evolve as we go and each individual becomes a peaceful loving human being. We all know that will take time.

So here's the choice. Either we gawk in helplessness at the scene of the crime, lingering way too long, or we capture the picture and go on to correct it by good acts in our own lives.

You can see right now, that the political wave is turning in this country out of the "raw pain" as don says, but it's happening naturally because we are ready.

14/8/07 4:43 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Antidoting fear

14/8/07 4:45 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The apology is not for our action or inaction. And apology would not be the right word. A sense of soothe across this place so the pattern does not have to repeat again and again.

Could not agree more, tseka, my sister, and A, my little brother.

14/8/07 4:45 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Antidoting fear

The best remedy. We can do it.

The talk about our paths upthread and exactly what to do is illuminated by this, I think, tseka. It matters not, the details. The overall attempt at administering the antidote is enough.

14/8/07 4:48 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

The overall attempt at administering the antidote is enough.

My core belief- learned at the death of my beloved brother- when you strip everything away all that is left is Love.

14/8/07 4:53 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And I can't say this enough. All this screaming about dying and violence and the pitiful state of mankind is an escape from the current problems. Staring at screens scaring one another and looking far away is avoiding the immediate needs of all of us right here. We all need to be emraced. From the moment we're born we need lifelong comfort. How many of those compassionate people whose hearts are supposedly going out to people around the world are actually giving this love to themselves and those right next to them?

Some.

14/8/07 5:02 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Your brother. You are right.

We have absolutely no way of knowing whether or not the place after death is better. How self important can we be? Judging another's death. Trying to control it. Really.

14/8/07 5:04 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Let people die when the time comes. Live right when you are alive. It's not that complicated. Embrace the living.

14/8/07 5:13 PM  
Blogger jm said...

One more thing. All this confusion about what to do with ourselves seems to be universal. Are we doing the right or wrong thing? Will some specific pursuit save us from confusion? Are we wasting time? (I love that one)
We're always doing both right and wrong. It will reveal itself as we go. The confidence comes and goes with the confusion. All laced together in the beautiful matrix of this universe in its earthly dimension.

14/8/07 5:21 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

I learned this when my husband died, and believe me, I didn't want to part with him. I called him back once, so it seemed as he was trying to die. his eyes flew open and he ws startled. I then left the room for 15 minutes and when I came back, he was dead.

Your story echoes my dear friend's account of being with her beloved father when he died. He was struggling for breath and she could feel it in her until she felt that she herself could not breathe. She let go of his hand for just a second, turned her back and flung open the window and shutters to let in the night sky of Nice (also beloved of both). She inhaled deeply returned to her father who chose those moments to leave.

14/8/07 5:41 PM  
Blogger jm said...

That is so so beautiful tseka. How much we are in synchronization with our love of story-telling. This will see us all through.

O my god. What a great one you just spun for us.

14/8/07 5:55 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The struggle for breath was one of the hardest parts for me as a witness. It went on for a long time. I couldn't tell if he was struggling to release life or struggling to get to his death. If life was clinging to him or he, to life? I won't know until I get there.

Earlier that night he said he wanted to stay alive until Tuesday, so I could get his last SS check. It was saturday night. I said I couldn't bear the suffering until then, It wasn't worth the money!!! So we agreed he would die that night. I am amazed I ws allowed to participate in this magnificent moment to that extent. A great great honor.

So he went ahead and died. I drew the king of Wands exactly the moment he died.

14/8/07 6:02 PM  
Blogger jm said...

We laughed until the last hours of his life. We laughed with death.

14/8/07 6:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

But then, he was the funniest man in the universe. Everyone agreed to that.

14/8/07 6:04 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

hmmm Rove leaves.
Benjamin Netanyahu enters.

Interesting times.
The games afoot - they say.

14/8/07 6:16 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Sometimes you just have to look at things in perspective. That's what Pluto in Sagittarius is leaving us with.

All this earthly and personal turmoil is a speck in something much much much much grander. It exists both out in the cosmos and within us. It's accessible. For me, living in this dimension, too, makes my life worth it. Everything. The suffering really isn't quite that at all, when you look at it. It's what we name it. suffering? It's another sensation.

The blank and empty wall of rock reminds me of the blank canvas of our earthly incarnations and the freedom we have to create our own works of art.

14/8/07 6:20 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Benjamin Netanyahu (Oct. 21, 1949 GMT 10:16):

Sun = 27,41 Libra


Moon = 21,06 Libra

Look at all that libra.

14/8/07 6:21 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The parade of people in the government continues as is. They are just symbols. They're doing what they're supposed to do. In many ways they have nothing to do with us, only insofar as we identify. Things aren't going to change there, but they'll change somewhere.

14/8/07 6:22 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I can't follow them. They're dull.

14/8/07 6:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

OMG!!!!! I knew it! The Libra! Diplomacy is coming down the pike. Saturn return USA Libra.

14/8/07 6:24 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It just got interesting!!!!!!

14/8/07 6:24 PM  
Blogger jm said...

So who is this Net&^$)* cat and what job is he taking?

14/8/07 6:27 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Or alternatively
9:30 Jersalem
which gives him a o+ Sagittarius asc instead of a scorp.

14/8/07 6:27 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Saturn is currently transiting his mars in leo 9th house. Donch just love it?

14/8/07 6:28 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

Saturn return coming right up at 15+ Virgo.
The worlds a stage!

14/8/07 6:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I do love it!

I've been feeling the ME peace talks coming for a couple of years now.

Saturn in Virgo in USA 9th. Saturn in libra square Capricorn. Saturn at top of USA chart. One can safely speculate.

Great info, this N%&*% guy!

14/8/07 6:35 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

OMG i just went back and read your comment about the permission to die.

I got eye sparklers.

Yes, the final breaths are hard to listen to. Very.
I have seen it often JM a person waits, wills death away until the loved one says, it's okay now. Then the let go comes swiftly.

The king of wands- omg- one i greatly identify with my beloved.
At the exact moment, oh, oh, oh you beloved soul.

14/8/07 6:36 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'll have to catch up and look at these charts. This is something. The world's a stage? How 'bout the universe?

14/8/07 6:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I got the sparklers writing it. Some moments stay vivid till the end.

OMG. You are the 1st to understand my King of Wands. Omg.

14/8/07 6:39 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

new prime minister

A war guy, zionist with mars/pluto in Leo. But the astrology is sure all over it just as Bush.
oy

14/8/07 6:42 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And get this, dear Wise 1. The card I use has a small spot worn off right in he center of the King's heart. A white spot. At first I saw it as a flaw in the highly colorful deck. But I've learned.

14/8/07 6:42 PM  
Blogger jm said...

War? Hmmmm.

14/8/07 6:47 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Bush? Oh I remember him.

Gotta run out for a sec. will be back for more. Very interesting.

14/8/07 6:48 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

leave
to arrive
I go away
to be closer

To the space of your thoughts
to your heart
I crawl
into the heart

I journey
on the sea of time
follow
the tracks of the wind

14/8/07 6:53 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

oops please read first line as:

I leave

14/8/07 6:54 PM  
Blogger Tseka said...

hmmm what i immediately thought of was the "Saturn to Uranus" that is the topic of this thread. His Saturn at 15+ Virgo | MC is opposed by transiting Uranuns and soon to be transited by Saturn.

14/8/07 7:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I love this poet.

The Saturn-Uranus is just about here and it's going to be interesting.

14/8/07 9:28 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm going to do a post on the change, but the collapse of the Minneapolis bridge was the start, it appears. Rove leaving is the big symbol. There is no way that the established rule will be unaffected by Uranus. Eh?

14/8/07 9:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Are you ready for this?

One important factor is the USA Neptune at 22 Virgo at the top of the chart. When we entered WWII, guess where Neptune was? Of course. Just past the return on his way to Libra. Pluto was on our NN in Leo.

There never was a more heroic war act than that and we were the heroes of the day, deep in the world's consciousness. As kj said on another thread, the romance of war.

Now the romance is gone and the world is tired of violence as the trend proves.

With Saturn coming to this point, the only chance is to help broker some semblance of peace in the ME to restore the natural Neptunian heroic image that will be restored in time anyway.

With the Mars retro progression and all the Saturn-Capricorn coming up this is possible. No way of knowing, but these players coming in seem to point in that direction.

The world still holds America to this white knight myth, the dirty wars of the recent years weren't enough to destroy it. They are expecting us to come through. So this will unfold according to destiny and it could be fascinating.

I should probably do a piece on it.:-)

14/8/07 9:47 PM  
Blogger jm said...

99.9% of what I'm hearing in the news and reading, or used to read, on the blogs is complete bullshit. They know not. Not at all. There are too many unseen forces at work for any human to know what's really happening. Metaphysicians can take educated guesses. But the experts? They need many many many more lifetimes of experience.

For example, tonight I actually heard someone in all seriousness parroting the crap about us being in a very similar position to the Roman Empire when it fell. Do you believe that? How can they get away with such nonsense? It's all theater, so I guess that's how.

But anyway, no one knows, and of course, no one's in charge. Thank god. We're safe.

14/8/07 9:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Let me add that the Neptune combined with our NN in Leo, activated by WWII is the same Leo-Pisces I've been discussing and the mythological hero. There are no heroes in reality but do we "really" live in reality? Why do we keep trying to create these myths over and over all throughout history?

14/8/07 10:02 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"For example, tonight I actually heard someone in all seriousness parroting the crap about us being in a very similar position to the Roman Empire when it fell. Do you believe that?"

Ha ha ha ha! :-) Must be too much lead in that person's water. Or something.

15/8/07 2:53 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Of course. Lead. Why didn't I think of that.

15/8/07 3:37 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Tseka, I just got a huge insight into something I'm doing with my music now in relation to the original cutting you do of your paintings. Will talk later. Big flash.

15/8/07 5:27 AM  
Blogger jm said...

The new ones are beautiful. Peaceful. Recordings of Ancient Winds. Much feeling. Tears in there.

15/8/07 5:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A friend of mine, who's made a study of Rome, I think made some parallel re: lead in the water and the fall of Rome. Doggone it, now I'm going to need to google this. @;-) ~~kj

15/8/07 5:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jm,

big hugs re: your music flash. :-) ~kj

15/8/07 5:47 AM  

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