Friday, August 10, 2007

The Unimportance of Importance

I'm interested in all spiritual paths, have studied many, and follow none. But Taoism interests me particularly. Taoism is one of the two great religions that originated in China. The other is Confucianism, and they emerged between 500 and 400 BC. Tao means The Way. The Way is understood to mean the way of nature. Taoists see the cycles and the constant change in the natural world as earthly signs of a universal force. They call this force Tao.
Taoism has no founder, nor does it have a supreme being. The body is seen as a miniature model of the universe, and a healthy body is a necessary step to a lofty spiritual state. The practitioners invented acupressure, acupuncture, and Tai Chi, and are experts in Chinese herbal medicine. In diet, they allow everything but suggest eating, drinking, and living in a balanced, sensible way. Exercise is integral to the practice, and meditation is used to come into relationship with the Tao. The most interesting part to me is the belief in wuwei....non-doing, which is central to Taoism. The phrase wei wuwei means "to do without doing" or "to act without action". It means a way of existing without strained conscious effort. This is behind their respect for longevity, because the longer one lives, the greater his chances of arriving at complete harmony.

Tao teaches the unimportance of importance. Good and bad are not far apart so it is possible to accept the difficulties of life calmly. The way of nature is not right or wrong -- it simply is. No one can tell how things will turn out. Success and failure, wealth and poverty, fame and obscurity, all have equal strengths and drawbacks. Taoists hope to have a long earthly life of self discipline and awareness, cultivating the three treasures....vitality, energy, and spirit.

When an archer is shooting for nothing
He has all his skill.

Nondoing does not mean withdrawing from action but rather performing a different kind of action. Outwardly going along with the flow, while inwardly keeping one's true nature. Things are done for their own sake, or not done.
Well, it sounds good, but probably a great effort for a doer. I already practice some of these things naturally, but now I've been wondering.....What is important? If anything. Do we attach false significance to circumstance in fear of the sameness, the continuum, the boredom, to create a feeling of aliveness? If the reason is for human drama, I suppose that's reason enough. Can we still experience the dramatic ebbs and flows recognizing their ultimate unimportance?

227 Comments:

Blogger kj said...

Can we still experience the dramatic ebbs and flows recognizing their ultimate unimportance?

I think so. :-)

What to say? The Way has been my daily practice for going on nearly two decades. I've lost count of the ways of practice at this point, which probably means what I've practiced is ingrained, at least a bit.

The struggle for me, especially as a writer, is finding that after after something has been translated from thought to action, I often lose the ability to put it back into words.

Which is another reason I come here to read. Many here have kept that ability and reading the experiences translated is such fun.

We're moving again. It is huge. It is also just boxes and trash. @;-)

10/8/07 7:02 AM  
Anonymous The_Ninth_Immortal said...

Ah yes, wu-wei. It is a beautiful idea, though hard for us Westerners to truly digest.

But if we could, what a tremendous relief it would be not to have to be constantly pushing ourselves to be winners and achieve...

If that happened, half the West's shrinks would go out of business!

10/8/07 8:43 AM  
Blogger kj said...

I'll take some of that non-action, ninth. @;-)

Seriously, I took break from packing yesterday and read a book. Best thing I coulda done, but at first, I had to tell myself "No guilt!"

10/8/07 11:16 AM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

I love the writings of Ursula K. Le Guin. She has written her own rendition of the Tao Te Ching that I have much enjoyed and her writing breathes of Tao. At the age of 78, she is still a prolific writer. The power of her writing is undiminished by her age.

I've always been fascinated with artists whose power increases with age, especially musicians. It seems quite common to hear a dramatic debut of an artist in his or her 20's, but to me the greatest thrill comes with hearing a great creative work of an older artist. It's inspiration I can draw on as I age, rather than looking backward to youth. Deep roots.

One of the artists who inspired me in this way was the late Michael Hedges. It seemed to me that he was the best he'd ever been at his death at 43. That's still young, but it was his fearless trajectory that inspired me.

10/8/07 11:29 AM  
Blogger kj said...

One of the books that made the cut was my dog-eared copy of Le Guin's "Dancing at The Edge of the World."

Michael Hedges I know nothing about. Any stories to share?

10/8/07 1:32 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

Michael Hedges-
I think if you watch this you'll get it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYTZ550D504

10/8/07 1:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

what a tremendous relief it would be not to have to be constantly pushing ourselves to be winners and achievers...

What a thought. It doesn't seem to be worth it either. I think we miss the small accomplishments because of it. I wonder what drives this excessive effort.

I've always been fascinated with artists whose power increases with age, especially musicians.

This is one of my major areas of interest and one reason I've wait so long to enter the market. Most artists I know have not been able to say fully what they've wanted to until well past 60, although I'm sure this varies. Age mellows and adds experience and the young's fear penetrates the expression for me. Discomfort with themselves.

I thought of becoming a dancer yeras ago and I'm cetainly glad I didn't because of the pressure of time and the breakdown of the body.

As far as singing goes, the female voice doesn't come in until about 50. Opera singers don't sing challenging roles until the 40s generally.

This is another great thought as I feel at my advanced age that I've only started. I expect to find the voice I'm seeking as I go through my 60s and 70s.
I had a dream about this last night, mpk, so thank you so much for the reminder.

I think one of the reasons they get better with age is because they get more detached from approval and validation from the outside, and maybe stop the excessive forward motion more in keeping with the nowness of the Tao.

10/8/07 1:48 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Thanks for the link, mpk! Very
nice. I don't know anything about music (except what I love to hear), but this has almost a classical sound. I'm sorry to hear that he passed away.

What did you think, JM?

BTW, my buddy the Prof doesn't think a writer is worth their salt, however talented they may be, until they're at least 50. ?! I don't agree with him on that point, but it does say something positive about age.

10/8/07 1:57 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

But if we could, what a tremendous relief it would be not to have to be constantly pushing ourselves to be winners and achieve...

When I was younger, I never wanted to choose something to give my full energy at that I felt could be corrupted. I was taken by Jim Morrison who said he was fascinated by "events that have no meaning". I got so good at the passing of juggling clubs in college I once competed at the international level. My partners and I wanted to compete because we had created something new, a pattern no one had ever done before.

After college I wandered around Europe, doing shows in the street. I met all sorts of performers and fascinating people. I lived on next to nothing, occasionally slept on park benches, under bridges, hitch hiking around to festivals. I performed everyday for several weeks at Avignon Festival. I remember beautiful audiences underneath the old Palace of the Popes. After a few performances, I would buy cheese, bread and wine and go back to my camp or wander the city. Some people liked my shows and befriended me, took me to other shows or put me up in their homes.

I once performed with a dancing woman from the Netherlands who painted herself all in blue and wore a strange golden crown and said she was from the Pleides. When all my things were stolen on a bus to Amsterdam she drove several hours to the city and rescued me for a while.

Now that juggling is just one facet of my existence and not the central one. It's still a great pleasure. I like to go out to a park with nice trees and juggle five shining clubs, or put up a line and walk it.

This is one of those periods of personal history, as we were speaking of earlier, that has been rounded out by memory, for it was surely often difficult and unglamorous as well.

10/8/07 2:38 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Do you play music?

When I was younger, I never wanted to choose something to give my full energy at that I felt could be corrupted.

What a substantial statement. What is corruption and how does it get in? Isn't it always there but kept in line with the healthy growing aspect? This is very interesting in terms of the "flaw" and how we work around it or with it to prevent overtaking of the whole and corruption of its functioning.
Fascinating. Can we control this, as a juggler, or is it preferable to trust in a natural alignment?

PS. I'm on dialup taking the slow approach, so I can't get videos. Will seek audios on this artist, since I love good guitar.

The perfection of skill you describe is Saturn when young. The awards, the prestige, the physical mastery. I think maturity could loosen this need and an attempt to find a different mastery comes, possibly the reason artists get better with time. Maybe everything does because of this memory factor. The more memory we have the more we can potentially see the rounded beauty. The flaws as part of the whole not a competing factor, since age does this to our bodies and we learn to accept it. I think this drives the joy of old age as I've seen it in some.

What a great thought. Memory in terms of a developing artist.

10/8/07 2:57 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I remember beautiful audiences underneath the old Palace of the Popes.

Round memory indeed.

10/8/07 2:58 PM  
Anonymous The_Ninth_Immortal said...

That summoned up beautiful images m.p.k. - thanks for sharing (and btw, I have *serious* respect for anyone who can juggle...)

Sort of like when I was performing in some plays at the Edinburgh fringe festival of 1995, sharing a cramped, filthy apt with 7 other fellow undergrads and cast members, on a tight budget. That was a pretty arduous existence, but also romantic, magical, and transforming (heh, that's when I first heard about people who were transgendered... and the sky seemed to light up as I finally had a name to my till-then mysterious identity).

10/8/07 2:59 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

Round memory :-) I suppose to balance it out I should mention all the times I got rained on, hastled by drunks etc... The reason why the life of a street performer was not for me...

10/8/07 3:01 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I am thunderstruck.
This connection with flaw and the aging body. There came a point with me when I noticed a definte feeling of acceptance and an understanding that the breakdown would be logical and timed well as other things developed to take it's place. Watching the skin change is an experience that so many women fear but it has deep lessons.

Could be that the natuural aging process is designed to teach us wisdom? The flaw and it's part in the play. As we age, our truer selves come to the surface.
Could the flaw be part of truth that finds acceptance with wisdom and time?

10/8/07 3:05 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The reason why the life of a street performer was not for me...

LOL. I'm not a fan of street performance, although I like its presence. I don't find myself getting drawn in. I prefer indoor enclosures for performance. I need the walls for reverberation.

10/8/07 3:08 PM  
Blogger jm said...

hastled by drunks

That's a big one all the way around.

10/8/07 3:09 PM  
Anonymous The_Ninth_Immortal said...

I like the idea of our truer selves becoming more apparent as we age.

I think we really need to reevaluate what age and aging mean. In ancient times, to reach old age was a sign of favour with the gods. Now, it's a cause of mourning and a countdown to being considered less-than-worthy of care, attention, respect, emulation.

10/8/07 3:19 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

Street performance in Europe, where it has a long history, is much different than it is here. Over there I could do silent performances and draw a crowd. Try that in the States, where people mostly want to see you threaten yourself or others if you are a circus type performer, and you get nowhere. The only place in the US comparable to the atmosphere in Europe is (or was?) New Orleans.

10/8/07 3:19 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I agree. I think we need to reevaluate the relationship to the aging process.

I think some progress will be made with Pluto in Capricorn. This is an historic moment. We will have an unusally large aging population with the boomers, and they have money and political power. I see the signs already as mature women are being looked at. That's a start!

But the real start is with us as we see ourselves in our own lights and come to understand the character molding that comes with age. I know people who are like this and I've always admired them. I see very old women in the grocery stores with a beauty that is unique and they know it. Old people have had power all along under this canned and plastic screen.

The best part is the freedom that comes with old age. What once was aberrant behvior often becomes eccentric and charming. Not all, of course.

10/8/07 3:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Try that in the States, where people mostly want to see you threaten yourself or others if you are a circus type performer

Truth. Not even circus performers. One fascinating thing to do is to watch a pop singer with the sound off. The expressions of assault, the hatred of the audience would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. I stopped going to concerts since I was yelled at enough as a child. Full tank.

10/8/07 3:43 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...


Do you play music?


I can play classical piano, but I haven't played for years. My mother was a piano teacher. She got sick when I was 16 and died when I was 17 and I haven't played much since then.

Partly, I did not want to go on after her death, mostly, I hadn't heard the music I wanted to play yet. I think I will return to it in a few years when I have the space and time, to what extent, I don't know.

10/8/07 4:18 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

But the real start is with us as we see ourselves in our own lights and come to understand the character molding that comes with age. I know people who are like this and I've always admired them. I see very old women in the grocery stores with a beauty that is unique and they know it. Old people have had power all along under this canned and plastic screen.

Just like my grandmother!

Yes, jm, I see it too. I see a return to authenticity in the making, which is wonderful as it is greatly needed in our world at this time.

I think Pluto in Capricorn will empower the aged and mature, much as Pluto in Sagittarius has empowered the religous, rich and famous. But whereas I think Sag Pluto is more style over substance, Cap Pluto is in many ways the inverse, favoring substance over style. Practical knowledge, experience and wisdom that comes with age.

Our national culture seems to be so fearful of aging. We collectively spend billions of dollars each year on plastic surgery and anti-aging remedies and methods to try and deny both physically and mentally what should come naturally. Why not just embrace it and take it in stride? Perhaps indeed we will see in the coming years, a greater respect for age and maturity.

10/8/07 4:39 PM  
Blogger kj said...

ah, mpk. i was 16. i understand, truly.

10/8/07 4:47 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I hope you return to music mpk. There is so much experience with death in your life and this is a well of feeling and information that we all could dip into through some creative expression from you. Losing mothers early is something we don't comprehend and I have heard very few people express the magnitude of the loss.

I see and sense so much in the piano that even words fail me. Your mother is in there, of course. She could guide you to yourself and then on to us.

I love the piano. Completely. It envelops me.
Omg.

10/8/07 4:47 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Neo! Your precious grandmother. The memories have begun. What a life.

I think Pluto in Capricorn will empower the aged and mature, much as Pluto in Sagittarius has empowered the religous, rich and famous.

Omg. Fantastic point.

There will have to be an acceptance of aging since so many will be there. I'm sure of it. Numbers seem to dictate, good and bad as it is.

Our national culture seems to be so fearful of aging.

Too bad for us. The youth I think already are sensing this. A certain loss of control.

10/8/07 4:51 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Try that in the States, where people mostly want to see you threaten yourself or others if you are a circus type performer

Truth. Not even circus performers. One fascinating thing to do is to watch a pop singer with the sound off. The expressions of assault, the hatred of the audience would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. I stopped going to concerts since I was yelled at enough as a child. Full tank.


I think even this will change with Pluto in Cap. As I mentioned, Pluto in Sag has empowered style over substance and a sort of "anything-goes" zeitgeist. In entertainment today, most of our performers and celebrities are known because of the sensationalist/tabloidesque media marketing machine behind them, rather than for any real talent that they may or may not have.

With Pluto in Capricorn, this crop will be superceded by entertainers and performers who are known first and foremost for the very real quality of their talents, along with a certain sort of maturity about themselves and their performances. I think to some extent we are already seeing this now with the rise in popularity of the old style crooners and big band singers. Michael Bublé comes to mind. Also, Ballroom dancing seems to be making a comeback. The maturity element will also begin to reflect in the audiences as well.

10/8/07 4:55 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I've been having some very interesting conversations with young people lately and what I'm getting is a new seriousness. Voting has skyrocketed in that segment, which used to be more of an old age thing. What I see coming up is a coming together of the needs of youth with the need of the old when Uranus in Aries squares Pluto in Capricorn. The interesting part will be Saturn in Libra. The compromise. Fascinating.

10/8/07 4:56 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I think even this will change with Pluto in Cap. As I mentioned, Pluto in Sag has empowered style over substance and a sort of "anything-goes" zeitgeist. In entertainment today, most of our performers and celebrities are known because of the sensationalist/tabloidesque media marketing machine behind them, rather than for any real talent that they may or may not have.

Perfectly perfectly stated neo.

The maturity element will also begin to reflect in the audiences as well.

Omg, am I glad I waited. I had a strong feeling I should wait until Pluto got into Capricorn and I think I was absolutely right. After the next election things should be different.

When I attended the Democratic gathering last election night in a downtown hotel I noticed that the piped-in music at the entrance was classical, and I knew then something was afoot. Just the way it struck me with the political event.

10/8/07 5:00 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

There will have to be an acceptance of aging since so many will be there. I'm sure of it. Numbers seem to dictate, good and bad as it is.

I can't help but see this too, jm. The world is going to be rather "top-heavy" in terms of the aging population of baby boomers versus the younger, up-and-coming generations for awhile. I wonder how much this maybe will be influenced by Pluto transiting the transpersonal signs of Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces over the next several decades? These are also considered to be the "old-age" signs, maybe suggesting a necessary readjustment of our perspectives to that end? A time for a more mature perspective and outlook perhaps?

10/8/07 5:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm certain that skill will be returning in the arts and Pluto will first oppose Venus so I'd better get my synthesizer cables in line!

10/8/07 5:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Don't forget the Japanese boomers and their money, and integral part.

I wonder how much this maybe will be influenced by Pluto transiting the transpersonal signs of Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces over the next several decades? These are also considered to be the "old-age" signs, maybe suggesting a necessary readjustment of our perspectives to that end? A time for a more mature perspective and outlook perhaps?

Yes. And also with the added spritual dimension of the last quadrant.

It could be that the usual primitive leg draggers will still seem to be the story, but the advanced will have more influence I think. How it pans out remains to be seen, but I see desperation in this parade now, especially in the presidential candidates. There's a smell about it. There are others in grooming now, in the smaller rehearsal rooms and they'll be ready with the Capricorn influence of expertise.

10/8/07 5:09 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Neo. I think the bridge collapse was the turning point and we are pretty much in Cap now.

10/8/07 5:10 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Omg, am I glad I waited. I had a strong feeling I should wait until Pluto got into Capricorn and I think I was absolutely right. After the next election things should be different.

When I attended the Democratic gathering last election night in a downtown hotel I noticed that the piped-in music at the entrance was classical, and I knew then something was afoot. Just the way it struck me with the political event.


The energy is definitely shifting, and has been for awhile. Sort of like a single instrument playing in the background, but with others joining in along the way. You don't even notice it at first, but eventually you realize that there is an entire accompaniment playing.

I think the last 7 to 10 degrees of each sign are like this with every transiting planet, but we only really notice it with the slowest moving. Namely Pluto. I was just getting into astrology when Pluto made the transition from Scorpio to Sag, but looking back, I can still see the transitions taking place over those last few degrees. A big shift in energy.

As I believe you said earlier, jm, the Minneapolis bridge collapse was indeed a major turning point in the energy shift now, from Sagittarius to Capricorn. Now the public, politicians and the media are talking about infrastructure and the need for maintenance. Practical matters and concerns have somewhat superceded the banter more typical of this era, of drunken starlets, religious homophobic hypocrites and the like. Change is indeed in the air.

10/8/07 5:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The energy is definitely shifting, and has been for awhile. Sort of like a single instrument playing in the background, but with others joining in along the way.

Again, perfectly stated.

I think the last 7 to 10 degrees of each sign are like this with every transiting planet

I agree.

Practical matters and concerns have somewhat superceded the banter more typical of this era, of drunken starlets, religious homophobic hypocrites and the like. Change is indeed in the air.

LOL!!! Big applause!

10/8/07 5:25 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It's here. Saturn in Virgo will bring a change in feel exactly when Pluto turns direct in the GC and on to Cap. We're here on the bridge and in Capricorn territory. Then Jupiter goes into cap in December.

The thing that amazes me is the excitement about this and the anticipation. I don't recall this before, such high expectation. High Hopes.

This is the result of Pluto through Sagittarius. Renewed optimism. I dare anyone to tell me it isn't so.

10/8/07 5:29 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Go for it, jm! Skill and competence definitely.

Don't forget the Japanese boomers and their money, and integral part.

I suspect that it may have changed somewhat recently, but that's one thing I have long admired about Japan... the tremendous respect that they have for their aged and elderly family members and citizens. There is much that we could learn from them.

It could be that the usual primitive leg draggers will still seem to be the story, but the advanced will have more influence I think. How it pans out remains to be seen, but I see desperation in this parade now, especially in the presidential candidates. There's a smell about it. There are others in grooming now, in the smaller rehearsal rooms and they'll be ready with the Capricorn influence of expertise.

I see (and smell) the desperation, too. And I find it rather funny that the states are all in competition with each other to push back their primaries. Now they are actually talking about December 2007 for the first of them! They may have the final candidates decided before February, and a full 9 months of campaigning afterwards until November. Talk about insane.

Is just it me, or is this the most uninteresting, uninspired presidential campaign ever? I've totally lost interest in it before it has even truly begun.

10/8/07 5:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Chiron, perhaps, Sagittarius, and the healing of the spiritual wound.

Also interesting is Hercules inflicting Chiron's wound with his excessive strength. Maybe in feminine Capricorn, this kind of brute power will be tamed.

10/8/07 5:33 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Yes!! The primaries! Incredible. There's your desperation. Someone is steamrolling someone into office but it might backfire when the panets change.

is this the most uninteresting, uninspired presidential campaign ever? I've totally lost interest in it before it has even truly begun.

Yes. It is. And this is the good part, the loss of interest. It's all a game anyway and now the people are getting it. Politics is happening someplace else.

I struggled at first wanting so much to have a good president just to end this shame of the last two presidencies, but that might not be. So I'm learning acceptance and the loss of interest actually frees energy for more productive action. It's so uninspiring it's hard to believe but this is also Sagittaarius showing what's not uplifting. The sewer is getting old.

Anything can happen. Even if another jackass gets in, no predicting how long that will last.

Robert's seizure reminded us that nothing is permanent.

10/8/07 5:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Neo, another thing I've noticed. There is excitement but not in the traditional places. The blogs that used to run a high wire fast exciting drama have lost their spark. This is even a bigger clue. The man beating up man syndrome maybe is exhausting them. Violence does have a half-life.

10/8/07 5:45 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Neo. I think the bridge collapse was the turning point and we are pretty much in Cap now.

I believe you are right, jm. It will be even more apparent once Pluto goes direct.

It's here. Saturn in Virgo will bring a change in feel exactly when Pluto turns direct in the GC and on to Cap. We're here on the bridge and in Capricorn territory. Then Jupiter goes into cap in December.

Is it just me, or is Saturn changing signs associated with job/career changes? There's a sense of shifting and completion here for me as I pull up stakes on my part time job and prepare to relocate. A lot of other people I've known and worked with for the past two years are leaving as well for new things. It's just funny how the energy seems to be manifesting and dovetailing into a new beginning.

Time for a new chapter! Turn the page.

The thing that amazes me is the excitement about this and the anticipation. I don't recall this before, such high expectation. High Hopes.

I see it too, jm. I think the quality of the optimism has truly changed since Pluto crossed 0 Sag. But it's still optimism!

Back then, it seemed like the sky was the limit. Growth and expansionism as far as anyone could see and believe. Now there are issues to be dealt with, and bills to be paid, but the optimism is still present, even as Pluto nears 0 Cap. I think, however, it's less "super faith optimism" now and more of that good old "can do" optimism that's emerging now. Just like with the I-35 bridge in Minneapolis collapsing, but Minneapolis and really the entire state of Minnesota pulling together to heal and rebuild. They are setting the pace and example for us all to follow.

This is the result of Pluto through Sagittarius. Renewed optimism. I dare anyone to tell me it isn't so.

As an addition to that, I was struck by something you and joe I believe were talking about in the previous thread, about the incredible increase in diversity in this country and around the world, really. One thing I have quietly observed over the past decade is how the ethnic and racial divisions have really faded and how walls have even come tumbling down, and without warning.

There are so many interracial and inter-ethnic couples now, and so many of them are having kids. Before Pluto entered Sag, these relationships were very often shunned, and people were generally socially segregated from each other, separated by prejudice, suspicion, ignorance and blind hate. Now at the end of Pluto's transit of Sag, how much have things changed! Prejudice and racism aren't gone, and perhaps never will be, but they have never been more overwhemled by the sheer forces of reality, as more and more people have learned to accept and look beyond our superficial physical characteristics.

The United States isn't just black and white anymore, though it really never was in the first place. We are more diverse than ever, and that is something I think will become a major catalyst for political change. Congress in particular and our governments in general must also begin to reflect this diversity.

10/8/07 6:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Is it just me, or is Saturn changing signs associated with job/career changes?

It's stunning neo, how much the forces are helping us get on track. The Saturn in virgo is going to be very different and the whole kick-off of Pluto in Capricorn has Jupiter there and the trine to Saturn. This bodes very well.

As I said earlier, a lot of people have been floundering under Saturn-Neptune not knowing what to do, but the tasks will now be given to all who are serious about the work ahead. And that includes me!!

I see it too, jm. I think the quality of the optimism has truly changed since Pluto crossed 0 Sag. But it's still optimism!

Excellent excellent point. A transformed optimism. Pluto. Sag rising USA. Look at the stock market. Just in time.

One thing I have quietly observed over the past decade is how the ethnic and racial divisions have really faded and how walls have even come tumbling down, and without warning.

This is what makes me think things are going to work out in the Middle East with the Saturn in Libra square Capricorn. I think they're ready for peace to some extent.

What is absolutey mind blowing is that I am white and now I'm in the minority in my county! Out in the hinterlands of the USA!

Now at the end of Pluto's transit of Sag, how much have things changed! Prejudice and racism aren't gone, and perhaps never will be, but they have never been more overwhemled by the sheer forces of reality, as more and more people have learned to accept and look beyond our superficial physical characteristics.

I am so so so happy about this. It's the reason I moved here in the first place. This town has a Venus in Sag and we've always been like that. We had a Hispanic mayor with a 15% Hispanic pop, and then a Black mayor with a 10% black pop. Now we finally have a white mayor but the white folks are the minority!!! LOL!!!

It's the best characteristic of this town.

Now at the end of Pluto's transit of Sag, how much have things changed! Prejudice and racism aren't gone, and perhaps never will be, but they have never been more overwhemled by the sheer forces of reality, as more and more people have learned to accept and look beyond our superficial physical characteristics.

Absofrippinlutely. So exciting, neo.

The one thing my foreign friends always say about this country is the diversity they've seen nowhere else.

Sagittarius Rising. Our new identity. Our Ace.

Thank you Pluto.

10/8/07 6:23 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Chiron, perhaps, Sagittarius, and the healing of the spiritual wound.

Also interesting is Hercules inflicting Chiron's wound with his excessive strength. Maybe in feminine Capricorn, this kind of brute power will be tamed.


Maybe the difference between Jupiter/Sag and Saturn/Cap? Jupiter often overflows into excess, while Saturn works under limitations and restraint.

Yes. It is. And this is the good part, the loss of interest. It's all a game anyway and now the people are getting it. Politics is happening someplace else.

I think local is where the interest is shifting to. National politics are increasingly out of reach for most people, but I think people are collectively realizing that they can still get involved and make a difference on a local level, and more and more are doing so. Very young people too. I see some in the up and coming Pluto in Scorpio generation who are already awake and aware of this need.

I struggled at first wanting so much to have a good president just to end this shame of the last two presidencies, but that might not be. So I'm learning acceptance and the loss of interest actually frees energy for more productive action. It's so uninspiring it's hard to believe but this is also Sagittaarius showing what's not uplifting. The sewer is getting old.

Anything can happen. Even if another jackass gets in, no predicting how long that will last.


Well, you helped me to understand my Nodes, jm so I've since acknowledged the need to head North from South, and away from my rage at Bush and Cheney for their utter buffoonery and incompetence.

I really am tired of fighting, and I don't have to live now waiting for the world to drag the entire NeoCon cabal into The Hague on War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity. I don't know about myself getting into local politics right now. But maybe more community involvement when maybe things settle down somewhat in another month or two. There are a lot of ways to get involved and make a difference in the world around us.

Robert's seizure reminded us that nothing is permanent.

Very much agreed.

10/8/07 6:24 PM  
Blogger jm said...

We are more diverse than ever, and that is something I think will become a major catalyst for political change.

There is no douubt about this and it's what has the establishment in terror.

Just look at the reality. An African American and woman seriously running for pres for the first time in history. And the most powerful women ever in the House of Representatives. This is just the beginning. As soon as others know they have a chance and financing changes, which it must, they'll get in the game.

10/8/07 6:29 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I really am tired of fighting, and I don't have to live now waiting for the world to drag the entire NeoCon cabal into The Hague on War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity.

It will never happen anyway. Criminals work in this part of the spectrum and will continue to do so. Just thank your lucky starts you're not one of them. Karma is a mother.

10/8/07 6:33 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There are a lot of ways to get involved and make a difference in the world around us.

Hallelujah my brother. Every action can. Like the Tao if we get in synch. I think if we are connected to the beneficial, the bad falls away from us. Every single good act creates good karma.

10/8/07 6:36 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I mean lucky stars.

O lucky stars!!!!! Shine on down!

10/8/07 6:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There is an optimun amount of complaint mixed with an eye on improvement that works. Like punishment and reward. Reward works just a little bit better.

I think it's been proven that the best results groupwise come from enthusiasm for, not hatred against. So this will be tested in Capricorn where management learns the best techniques. Punishment or encouragement?

As we lab rats get into restructuring law and order we will be experimenting with these things. I think the instinct is order and organization as a society, judging from how easily people conform to traffic rules.

10/8/07 6:44 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

It's stunning neo, how much the forces are helping us get on track. The Saturn in virgo is going to be very different and the whole kick-off of Pluto in Capricorn has Jupiter there and the trine to Saturn. This bodes very well.

It definitely feels that way, like a time for getting down to the real business of what we're about and where we are headed.

As I said earlier, a lot of people have been floundering under Saturn-Neptune not knowing what to do, but the tasks will now be given to all who are serious about the work ahead. And that includes me!!

You're looking forward to it, and so am I. ;-)

This is what makes me think things are going to work out in the Middle East with the Saturn in Libra square Capricorn. I think they're ready for peace to some extent.

War can't go on forever. When it does, you eventually forget why you started fighting in the first place.

One astrologer I've read says that this is all a prelude to a brand new beginning, and that Islam may very well emerge as a powerful force for peace, reform and healing in the world. The calm after the terrible storm of war. It only took Christendom Europe two wars to get there. Maybe we can hope that this will be the last one for both the Mideast... and the United States.



What is absolutey mind blowing is that I am white and now I'm in the minority in my county! Out in the hinterlands of the USA!

LOL! In truth, I think we are all both minorities and a majority in a sense. I consider myself multi-ethnic, a blend of many minorities, some European and countless other groups, but regardless we're all a part of the only race that really matters... the human race, or the only true majority. I think this is a necessary leveling-out that will be better for us all in the long run.

The one thing my foreign friends always say about this country is the diversity they've seen nowhere else.



Sagittarius Rising. Our new identity. Our Ace.


Isn't the Pluto Return like a realization of truth? Like the first 248 years are practice, but the start of the second go-round is the start of the real deal? Maybe we are much closer to true acknowledgement and acceptance of our diversity. Pluto returning to 27-28 Capricorn a few years down the road will finalize it.

10/8/07 6:46 PM  
Blogger jm said...

You're looking forward to it, and so am I. ;-)

HA HA!! Could it be??? Me and the world? Well there is a little residual trepidation.

But, neo, the most amazing thing happened last night as I was driving home. There was a work crew on the street under those magnificent high powered lights they use and they looked contented and relaxed as they worked. The night crew is like that. It was like a work of art and I suddenly wanted to get out there.

10/8/07 6:51 PM  
Blogger jm said...

War can't go on forever. When it does, you eventually forget why you started fighting in the first place.

HA HA HA!!!! That is precious. So true. So that's why I stopped quarreling. :-)

10/8/07 6:52 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

It will never happen anyway. Criminals work in this part of the spectrum and will continue to do so. Just thank your lucky starts you're not one of them. Karma is a mother.

I'm so grateful I learned that lesson early in life. ;-)

Hallelujah my brother. Every action can. Like the Tao if we get in synch. I think if we are connected to the beneficial, the bad falls away from us. Every single good act creates good karma.

I am so trying to work on this.

I think it's been proven that the best results groupwise come from enthusiasm for, not hatred against. So this will be tested in Capricorn where management learns the best techniques. Punishment or encouragement?

I've seen the absolute best and worst of both. I vote for encouragement!!

10/8/07 6:53 PM  
Blogger jm said...

One astrologer I've read says that this is all a prelude to a brand new beginning, and that Islam may very well emerge as a powerful force for peace, reform and healing in the world.

This is a possibility. They are the ones in the lead now with their revolution in full swing. They could do well at least to beat Christianity in the drive to God!

Maybe we are much closer to true acknowledgement and acceptance of our diversity. Pluto returning to 27-28 Capricorn a few years down the road will finalize it.

That's exactly what this country is all about and this was the first pass across the ASC. Yes. The Pluto return. When our character becomes more important than our bank account.

10/8/07 6:57 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The start of the encouragement comes from our inner governor as we've been exploring here, and what you and I have just encountered on our Saturn returns.

Saturn ruled over a Renaissance in mythology and was supposed to be a great administrator. If we can learn to stop punishing ourselves, our governments will reflect it. It seems that the brutality is finally getting to the collective since violence is trending downward worldwide.

Many Africans have finally had it and are coming here to taste freedom for the first time and they are loving it. It will spread. The fact that they want to end the hurt is the good sign. It hurts a lot to leave the Motherland, but they are finally doing it.

10/8/07 7:02 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

HA HA!! Could it be??? Me and the world? Well there is a little residual trepidation.

Oh, come on. I don't believe that. ;-) You'll do just fine, jm! You can even help the world along!



But, neo, the most amazing thing happened last night as I was driving home. There was a work crew on the street under those magnificent high powered lights they use and they looked contented and relaxed as they worked. The night crew is like that. It was like a work of art and I suddenly wanted to get out there.

You know, I think there is really something very zen about working nights in general. It's so different from the hubbub of daylight business hours, and so much easier to find that contentment and even a state of relaxation as you describe it. There are fewer demands and less need for formality. The bigwigs, if they're even around are almost always half-way there themselves. I can say from my own experience that it's very nice. Especially in the twilight before dawn. ;-)

10/8/07 7:05 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The contract between the brutal dictators and the populace has to end and that works both ways, Freedom comes with a high price. People can walk away, believe it or not. They sometimes stay and keep recreating the situation to avoid responsibility. Fear of autonomy is deep.

10/8/07 7:06 PM  
Blogger jm said...

You can even help the world along!

Oh my god. This crazy world??? Well if they just develop a little malleability, then maybe. When they stop saying, "oh. You remind me of Gladys Pinchmouth, the famous jazz singer"!

10/8/07 7:09 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Oh, neo, that is gorgeous. Your description of the night. I'm feeling good.

You know, I think there is really something very zen about working nights in general.

OMG. I can do it. The Tao.

Thank you so much for this.

10/8/07 7:11 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

This is a possibility. They are the ones in the lead now with their revolution in full swing. They could do well at least to beat Christianity in the drive to God!

I think they are well on their way. I'd have to check the dates, but supposedly Pluto was in Aries when Islam was founded. So Pluto in Sag trining Islam's natal Pluto would naturally turn out to be a very important time. The 2070s when Pluto returns to Aries will be even more important and interesting. Maybe I can get an extension on my stay? ;-)

That's exactly what this country is all about and this was the first pass across the ASC. Yes. The Pluto return. When our character becomes more important than our bank account.

What was it that I read a while ago... about a country that defines their success not in Gross National Product (or GNP) but in GNH -- Gross National Happiness! Somewhere in Asia I think. Wherever it is, they certainly get it.

The start of the encouragement comes from our inner governor as we've been exploring here, and what you and I have just encountered on our Saturn returns.

It's been 29 years in the making. Something has definitely crystalized, and I think it will take me another 29 years to figure that out. ;-)

Saturn ruled over a Renaissance in mythology and was supposed to be a great administrator. If we can learn to stop punishing ourselves, our governments will reflect it. It seems that the brutality is finally getting to the collective since violence is trending downward worldwide.

That's very good news. I think our peace-oriented numbers are growing. Just a few more people giving up on violence in any given area truly makes a huge difference there, like the 100th monkey effect. There is an extremely peace-oriented town nearby, and except for one recent tragedy there, I can't remember hearing of any other violent crime taking place in that area for the past decade at least.

Many Africans have finally had it and are coming here to taste freedom for the first time and they are loving it. It will spread. The fact that they want to end the hurt is the good sign. It hurts a lot to leave the Motherland, but they are finally doing it.

I find that very interesting too. Columbus has a significant Somalian refugee population from what I've heard. It must be quite a contrast between their war-torn homeland and this city, which isn't perfect by any means, but must seem like a peaceful paradise by comparison. Perhaps eventually some will eventually be able to return with the knowledge and experiences that they've gained here, or perhaps their children or children's children will, to bring peace and healing back home.

10/8/07 7:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

What was it that I read a while ago... about a country that defines their success not in Gross National Product (or GNP) but in GNH -- Gross National Happiness! Somewhere in Asia I think. Wherever it is, they certainly get it.

OMG!! OMG!!! That's Bhutan. I ran across this recently and I loved it. You gotta check them out neo!

10/8/07 7:34 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The 2070s when Pluto returns to Aries will be even more important and interesting. Maybe I can get an extension on my stay? ;-)

LOL. You'll be back!
There are a lot of factors in the Islamic thing. The Aries one is a good point as far as leading into new frontiers spiritually. Tranformed from man beating man to man leading man. Very interesting.

The first time I entered a Moslem mosque in the ME was in Istanbul. The Blue Mosque and it was unbelievable. This was after the singing at sunset that goes on in the cities. The evening prayer.

As soon as I got into Turkey I was riveted and it lasted across Iran, Pakistan and into India. Iran was the worst. India the best. The mixture of Islam and Hinduism in India is beautiful in many ways.

Then north into Nepal where Buddhism takes the lead and an entirely different thing is sensed.

But the first encounter with the Islamic world in Turkey stays with me forever. And that Blue Mosque. The reverence is indescribable. No feet clattering on stone like in Christian churches. Thick carpets, bare feet, silence, darkness, and stained glass light.
Beautiful.

10/8/07 7:43 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Perhaps eventually some will eventually be able to return with the knowledge and experiences that they've gained here, or perhaps their children or children's children will, to bring peace and healing back home.

Oh neo, that's beautiful and probably accurate.

10/8/07 7:45 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The 2070s when Pluto returns to Aries will be even more important and interesting. Maybe I can get an extension on my stay? ;-)

Wait a minte. 30. You'll still be here.

10/8/07 7:47 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I've had a feeling for a long time now that this Middle Eastern situation was a cure in process. The 29 Pisces. The Tigris and Euphrates. The eventual liberation of Iraq from the chains they've always been in. They liberating themselves, and thus the rest of us. God is not in a book particularly and if the truth gets out and we pull out of this, maybe a sense of some more genuine version of God will appear on the heels of Pluto through Sagittarius. Man still needs an anthropomorphic god, so let it be a universal one. If we squeak through on this. And understand that no one and everyone is at fault.

10/8/07 8:09 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

The contract between the brutal dictators and the populace has to end and that works both ways, Freedom comes with a high price. People can walk away, believe it or not. They sometimes stay and keep recreating the situation to avoid responsibility. Fear of autonomy is deep.

America pulled it off once. With that revolutionary natal Aquarian moon, we inspired the world. I think the energy is ripe for the whole world now to take it to a brand new level.


Oh my god. This crazy world??? Well if they just develop a little malleability, then maybe. When they stop saying, "oh. You remind me of Gladys Pinchmouth, the famous jazz singer"!

LOL! Oh, I'm sure you have your own unique style and presence, jm. Jazz I think should also benefit much from Pluto in Cap, given the real skill and talent required to perform well at it. You will have your own part to play in these Saturnian/Capricorn times ahead. ;-)

10/8/07 8:25 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

OMG. I can do it. The Tao.

Thank you so much for this.


Thank you as well, jm. And for this conversation. It brings back memories, doesn't it? You've also inspired me, and so many others here in this Raging Universe. ;-)

10/8/07 8:27 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

OMG!! OMG!!! That's Bhutan. I ran across this recently and I loved it. You gotta check them out neo!

I am definitely going to check it out. ;-) As I said, it sounds like they get what it's really all about!

The first time I entered a Moslem mosque in the ME was in Istanbul. The Blue Mosque and it was unbelievable. This was after the singing at sunset that goes on in the cities. The evening prayer.



As soon as I got into Turkey I was riveted and it lasted across Iran, Pakistan and into India. Iran was the worst. India the best. The mixture of Islam and Hinduism in India is beautiful in many ways.



Then north into Nepal where Buddhism takes the lead and an entirely different thing is sensed.



But the first encounter with the Islamic world in Turkey stays with me forever. And that Blue Mosque. The reverence is indescribable. No feet clattering on stone like in Christian churches. Thick carpets, bare feet, silence, darkness, and stained glass light.

Beautiful.


Wow! I can't even imagine, jm. Talk about the journey of a lifetime! That much have been a truly awesome experience! I wish we could all have the chance to not only see and experience, but truly appreciate the culture and architecture and the people themselves the way you saw them. That had to be wonderful!

The 2070s when Pluto returns to Aries will be even more important and interesting. Maybe I can get an extension on my stay? ;-)



Wait a minte. 30. You'll still be here.


LOL! Well I suppose there's a fairly good chance, given that longevity seems to run in my family. My goal is at least 2067 or so, just to see Pluto reach another fire sign, and begin its' cycle anew.

Real fun though would be Pluto in Taurus. I think the Pluto-Uranus conjunction in 2104 is actually a single pass at my natal Sun -- 6 Taurus. Now that would be very interesting to experience! ;-)

10/8/07 8:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

America pulled it off once. With that revolutionary natal Aquarian moon, we inspired the world. I think the energy is ripe for the whole world now to take it to a brand new level.

Great thought. The mutual reception between Uranus and Neptune will manifest. Uranus in Aries. Transits coming to our Moon. This is why I see us in the forefront still on the world's stage although backing off a bit to let others get their liberated legs. I've never thought our freedom was threatened, although I could be wrong. It's our money problem, really. Our meal ticket is next. Our societal diet, actually.

I do have a unique style and what I'm banking on is the Pluto square the Uranus in Aries and the new frontiers all the way around within traditional parameters. This defines my style. Some nostalgic something or other that can't quite be pinpointed. Unique but recognizable. I can sing Fly Me to the Moon but they'll scratch their heads when I do it.

But most important is my solo statement. One woman band. This is where the Uranus in Aries can help me. There will be many independent women getting a boost with this. And the Capriocorn age factor. Plus Pluto on my MC! Can I lose???? A little old lady doing her thing with expertise! Confident with her Saturn in Leo. Take me or leave me. Just don't throw things!

Well there is always an element of chance or the game would be dull. Funny. The deck was stacked against me all my life and now I'm really beginning to wonder..:-)

I have the opposite nodes from you and I'm learning that if they don't like me, it's their misfortune. No compromise is advisable. They'll have plenty of chances to figure it out!

10/8/07 8:42 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Thank you as well, jm. And for this conversation. It brings back memories, doesn't it?

Neo, I can hardly describe how pleasurable this conversation is. It certainly does bring back memories, but tonight it has gone to a new level. One I've always wanted. I felt squeezed before and never could completely stretch into the conversations which I always loved with you.

I'm very happy about this and I think it portends something. Some kind of freedom amd self respect. We can talk to whom we want to, for as long as we want to, any time we want to.

Maybe we are liberating ourselves and doing what we enjoy. And political release could be part of it. Maybe we've learned how to be free as a result of these times. the next level, as you say.

The NN will soon be in Aquarius.

10/8/07 8:48 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

I've had a feeling for a long time now that this Middle Eastern situation was a cure in process. The 29 Pisces. The Tigris and Euphrates. The eventual liberation of Iraq from the chains they've always been in. They liberating themselves, and thus the rest of us. God is not in a book particularly and if the truth gets out and we pull out of this, maybe a sense of some more genuine version of God will appear on the heels of Pluto through Sagittarius. Man still needs an anthropomorphic god, so let it be a universal one. If we squeak through on this. And understand that no one and everyone is at fault.

You know, though I think it may not be readily apparent now, perhaps there is something being planted as we speak that may very well grow into a more genuine version/interpretation of God, maybe more along the lines of a spiritual-universial consciousness. The very young Pluto in Sag kids I believe will be the ones who carry this new idea out into the world. Perhaps especially this latest group, born with the mutual reception between Neptune in Aquarius and Uranus in Pisces. There will definitely be a spiritualist perspective inherent in them, even during their earliest formative years.

10/8/07 8:50 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Neo, I think you might see some of what you want. We probably will be living longer. According to science, we are supposed to live until about 150, from the mathematics of our life cycles. There are people who live that long already, as in Hunza, so it could be where we're headed.

2104? Not out of range at all..:-)

Isn't it amazing that with all our complaints that we just want to live and live and live?

10/8/07 8:54 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The very young Pluto in Sag kids I believe will be the ones who carry this new idea out into the world.

I think so. And the transits of the last quadrant these next years. The pluto-Uranus generation that will be much more advanced than the Pluto in Leos. Pluto and Leo, both fixed, stubborn and associated with dictatorship.

This squirmy country did not like the taste of it at all!

10/8/07 8:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

If you look at it historically, we are well out of the Dark Ages spiritually as the Age of Pisces comes to a close. No way of knowing if what's ahead will be any better. But it will be different, I'm sure.:-)

It does look like a sort of slow improvement though.

My feeling is that as we explore space and become familiar with the black void, we will be less afraid of god. More familiar. Cosmic closeness as we learn what's out there.

I think the recent discovery of the conditions for life on another planet was a portend. It will ease our fear and loneliness in time.

10/8/07 9:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

There is also the 95% of the ocean floor that is still unexplored. No telling what we'll find there.

There seems to be a trend developing toward understanding outer space rather than conquering it. This could be part of the Aquarian Age coming in.

10/8/07 9:07 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Great thought. The mutual reception between Uranus and Neptune will manifest. Uranus in Aries. Transits coming to our Moon. This is why I see us in the forefront still on the world's stage although backing off a bit to let others get their liberated legs. I've never thought our freedom was threatened, although I could be wrong. It's our money problem, really. Our meal ticket is next. Our societal diet, actually.

I don't think our freedom is in any real jeopardy. And if it is, the threat won't endure. The U.S. natal moon in Aquarius will simply have the people fiercely rebelling against any attempted clamp-down that comes.

Money. Yeah, now that's a problem. Second House natal Pluto is obsessed with it. But Pluto returning to our natal degree will bring us back to what we really and truly value most, and I think it's so much more than money.

I do have a unique style and what I'm banking on is the Pluto square the Uranus in Aries and the new frontiers all the way around within traditional parameters. This defines my style. Some nostalgic something or other that can't quite be pinpointed. Unique but recognizable. I can sing Fly Me to the Moon but they'll scratch their heads when I do it.



But most important is my solo statement. One woman band. This is where the Uranus in Aries can help me. There will be many independent women getting a boost with this. And the Capriocorn age factor. Plus Pluto on my MC! Can I lose???? A little old lady doing her thing with expertise! Confident with her Saturn in Leo. Take me or leave me. Just don't throw things!
.

That's all of that Aries energy you've got, jm! Your ascendant and NN. The willpower to go it alone and blaze a trail all of your own. They may scratch their heads, but I'll bet because they've never heard your take on it before. And I'm sure they'll be very much impressed by it. ;-)

Little old lady? LOL! You've got an Aries ASC, so that makes you one to be reckoned with!

Well there is always an element of chance or the game would be dull. Funny. The deck was stacked against me all my life and now I'm really beginning to wonder..:-)

Like my mom often told me when I was younger and would get frustrated when running into a figurative brick wall, sometimes people come into their own later in life. Sometimes much later. That brick wall may get annoying, but after you've run into a couple of them, you'll know how to deal with them better than someone who hits one for the first time after having had everything come to them so easily throughout life.

All the transits now and those to come. Plus the fact that you just completed your second Saturn Return. I think it's your time, jm. I really do. ;-)

10/8/07 9:28 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Neo, I can hardly describe how pleasurable this conversation is. It certainly does bring back memories, but tonight it has gone to a new level. One I've always wanted. I felt squeezed before and never could completely stretch into the conversations which I always loved with you.


I also really enjoyed our conversations at AW, jm. But this is your home turf, of course, and there's nothing better than that to a Cancerian. You needed a place where you could truly be and express yourself. But you make me feel right at home here at RW as well, and I'm sure that so many others here feel the same way.


I'm very happy about this and I think it portends something. Some kind of freedom amd self respect. We can talk to whom we want to, for as long as we want to, any time we want to.



Maybe we are liberating ourselves and doing what we enjoy. And political release could be part of it. Maybe we've learned how to be free as a result of these times. the next level, as you say.



I'm thinking of one of my favorite quotes:

"You have only to decide to resist. As long as the will to be free exists, the greatest battle is already won!"
--Gillian


The NN will soon be in Aquarius.

That probably has quite a bit to do with it, plus the fact that the Internet is itself a very Aquarian manifestation. A great leveling, equalizing medium. Even as badly as the corporations want to subdue and control it, they'll never truly succeed in doing so.

10/8/07 9:40 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Oh neo, thank you. This is ambrosia.

This truly is a big moment. Pluto is square my 0 Libra Mars now and I am really getting to know what being an Aries means, something you have known for lifetimes with your SN.

The fight or flight preparedness, the energy, strength, and potency that can't let up, survival mode, the backing off and defending one's self, the will to live, and of course, the will to conquer and beat all odds. The raging force of it all that needs bridling so potential can become kinetic.

The might of it is just incarnating with this survival transit and when Uranus squares Pluto exactly, Pluto will be on my MC.

I've always always felt too weak, but I'm beginning to get the full effect of Aries and it is staring to blow me away.

Conversely, I see the innate talent of your NN in Libra and your infinite skill and love of the one on one.

I love love love this nodal exchange of information. We will take riches away from tonight.

10/8/07 9:44 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Neo, I think you might see some of what you want. We probably will be living longer. According to science, we are supposed to live until about 150, from the mathematics of our life cycles. There are people who live that long already, as in Hunza, so it could be where we're headed.

2104? Not out of range at all..:-)


Fascinating! Hmm... a Neptune Return? Now wouldn't that be something!

I guess even if I don't make it on this go round, there's always next time. Maybe we'll eventually be living to see our own Pluto Returns? ;-)

Isn't it amazing that with all our complaints that we just want to live and live and live?

I agree. Isn't that all most people really want?

10/8/07 9:47 PM  
Blogger jm said...

That probably has quite a bit to do with it, plus the fact that the Internet is itself a very Aquarian manifestation. A great leveling, equalizing medium. Even as badly as the corporations want to subdue and control it, they'll never truly succeed in doing so.

Never in a million years. You know, neo. The corporations are overwhelmed now. They cetainly can't control us and that's not what they're trying to do. They are trying to survive. I think they are in big trouble and people are being fooled. That's what the media is for. Too much growth and competition and many are losing it. The new tax break they want is the clue. Money is disappearing. Health is going. Cancerous growth is winning. They are far too busy to control us. It was always impossible anyway.

The main thing is that we are their survival. The consumers and we are getting more and more power as they are dying from eating themselves up.

The recent battle with Whole Foods and Wild Oats is telling.

10/8/07 9:51 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

The pluto-Uranus generation that will be much more advanced than the Pluto in Leos. Pluto and Leo, both fixed, stubborn and associated with dictatorship.

This squirmy country did not like the taste of it at all!


LOL! Well, I guess it all has it's time and place. The Pluto in Leos were revolutionaries of their own back in their younger years. I have a feeling that they are going to need to recapture some of that energy to fight for adequate health care and retirement. Us Pluto in Libras though will teach them how to compromise. ;-)

10/8/07 9:52 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I agree. Isn't that all most people really want?

That's it. We want life and life wants us. Couldn't be a better deal.

10/8/07 9:53 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I have a feeling that they are going to need to recapture some of that energy to fight for adequate health care and retirement. Us Pluto in Libras though will teach them how to compromise. ;-)

HA HA!! That'll give us something to do and keep us out of trouble. A bent over and shriveled medicated Pluto in Leo is not much of a threat!

Compromise?? maybe the Neptunes in Libra. We'll have to put a facade over the front of the nursing homes to think they are royal palaces!

10/8/07 9:58 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

If you look at it historically, we are well out of the Dark Ages spiritually as the Age of Pisces comes to a close. No way of knowing if what's ahead will be any better. But it will be different, I'm sure.:-)

There's good and bad in every age, but yes, the Age of Aquarius will certainly be different!

It does look like a sort of slow improvement though.

I think it will continue to be. Since humanity is ruled by Aquarius, I think it will be an empowerment of sorts. A real coming into our own. We are catching glimpses of this with the outer planets transiting Aquarius all within a few years of each other (although Pluto won't get there for about another 16 years).

My feeling is that as we explore space and become familiar with the black void, we will be less afraid of god. More familiar. Cosmic closeness as we learn what's out there.

I think the recent discovery of the conditions for life on another planet was a portend. It will ease our fear and loneliness in time.


I think so too. We're not nearly as alone as I think some would like to believe.

There is also the 95% of the ocean floor that is still unexplored. No telling what we'll find there.



There seems to be a trend developing toward understanding outer space rather than conquering it. This could be part of the Aquarian Age coming in.


We'll never come close to conquering space, even if we had the means to try, but I think the "Star Trek" model of exploration is a lot closer to being something we can manifest in reality than what it presently seems.

10/8/07 10:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I think it will continue to be. Since humanity is ruled by Aquarius, I think it will be an empowerment of sorts. A real coming into our own. We are catching glimpses of this with the outer planets transiting Aquarius all within a few years of each other (although Pluto won't get there for about another 16 years).

What a great reminder. You know, neo, I never knew just how inspirational you are. It makes me realize how good it is to be freed from our own bonds, such as the SN. This is wonderful.

It's such a good feeling to look at all this Aquarius, and then Uranus soon in Aries signaling a new survival cycle.

More and more I am looking forward to this NN in Aquarius transit. All the Aquarius has affected me more than I ever thought it would. Brought me out of the cave and there's far more to come. Plus Pluto is exactly opposite my Uranus now and the fellowship with men cannot be denied. That's pretty good from an Aries.

10/8/07 10:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Another thing I'm gleaning from this conversation is your steady strength and focus. The followthrough. Taurus and Capricorn. This is part of the capricorn transit coming up. A focus of the scattering, exactly like you said, and you are showing how it's done. It's like harnessing universal energy. Pluto does that I think.

10/8/07 10:14 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Aries can stick with it through sheer force of detrmination, but Capricorn does it naturally, possibly with less effort, contrary to what we might think.

People equate suffering and hardship with Saturn and Capricorn, but I'm not sure about this. Only if you break the law and get caught!

10/8/07 10:17 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Oh neo, thank you. This is ambrosia.

I agree, jm. It has certainly been a pleasure. ;-)

This truly is a big moment. Pluto is square my 0 Libra Mars now and I am really getting to know what being an Aries means, something you have known for lifetimes with your SN.

The fight or flight preparedness, the energy, strength, and potency that can't let up, survival mode, the backing off and defending one's self, the will to live, and of course, the will to conquer and beat all odds. The raging force of it all that needs bridling so potential can become kinetic.

The might of it is just incarnating with this survival transit and when Uranus squares Pluto exactly, Pluto will be on my MC.


It will certainly be a very important time for you, jm. I know you will get the most out of it. But truly, I think you are already nearly there.

I've always always felt too weak, but I'm beginning to get the full effect of Aries and it is staring to blow me away.

It was always there. But as you have taught us, the rising energy can take a lifetime to reach and realize. But you have been spending quite a bit of time recently focusing upon and really developing it, so I think it's only natural that you are making such tremendous progress in such a short period of time. That's actually very Arien in and of itself! Taking that initiative and putting such a powerful drive behind it. You are so much stronger than you realize!

Conversely, I see the innate talent of your NN in Libra and your infinite skill and love of the one on one.

Thanks! You still understand it better than I do. ;-) But it is becoming much clearer to me tonight.

I love love love this nodal exchange of information. We will take riches away from tonight.

I very much agree!

10/8/07 10:18 PM  
Blogger jm said...

But you have been spending quite a bit of time recently focusing upon and really developing it

Pluto to my Mars. My greatest aim now is to express it and stay out of power struggles that will force it. I have one going and that's enough!

Lately I've backed out of almost every entanglement and this is a great self defense tactic at this point. I want a clear path to my destination and I mean to have it.

But truly, I think you are already nearly there.

Probably the best part. Better enjoy it. Of course, once we're there, we're not there again.

It's amazing how we've followed one another's paths around here. Remember how trapped we were when we all met? things do really change when the time is right. You're getting ready to move, and I'm getting ready to conquer my city! Well, that wasn't so hard after all. :-)
We helped one another through the thorny thicket.

10/8/07 10:32 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Never in a million years. You know, neo. The corporations are overwhelmed now. They certainly can't control us and that's not what they're trying to do. They are trying to survive. I think they are in big trouble and people are being fooled. That's what the media is for. Too much growth and competition and many are losing it. The new tax break they want is the clue. Money is disappearing. Health is going. Cancerous growth is winning. They are far too busy to control us. It was always impossible anyway.

I really think so too, jm. They have become so large and unwieldy. Too big for their own good, or anyone else's. Wal-Mart. The Auto companies. Big Oil. The Media companies. Even the banks. They are all struggling to stay afloat.

This is one of the major issues that Pluto in Capricorn will be dealing with. Big companies are really inefficient structures and resource hogs, and Capricorn Pluto demands efficiency. I think many of them will either need to break up, or go belly up. Local companies and industries will fare much better than many of the global conglomerate networks as they are now set up.

Was it joe or ninth who suggested that the Midwest may make a comeback under Pluto in Cap? I see this as well, as I think the US will be at some point forced to reopen or rebuild some of the manufacturing capabilities that we have shipped overseas in the name of globalization. It will once again become cost effective to produce many our own goods and services locally, rather than internationally. Big restructuring and reorganization is in the works. Some of those neglected Midwestern cities will benefit from it. Actually, I think most cities will in general.

The main thing is that we are their survival. The consumers and we are getting more and more power as they are dying from eating themselves up.

The recent battle with Whole Foods and Wild Oats is telling.


I think most people forget that they have the power. The corporations go to great lengths to try and distract us from realizing this, but I think a "waking up" is inevitable, as more people are figuring out now that there's more to life than endless consumption of material goods and resources. I believe that this is another part of the higher consciousness emerging from the mutual reception between Neptune and Uranus.

HA HA!! That'll give us something to do and keep us out of trouble. A bent over and shriveled medicated Pluto in Leo is not much of a threat!

Compromise?? maybe the Neptunes in Libra. We'll have to put a facade over the front of the nursing homes to think they are royal palaces!


LOL!

10/8/07 10:40 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

I think it will continue to be. Since humanity is ruled by Aquarius, I think it will be an empowerment of sorts. A real coming into our own. We are catching glimpses of this with the outer planets transiting Aquarius all within a few years of each other (although Pluto won't get there for about another 16 years).



What a great reminder. You know, neo, I never knew just how inspirational you are. It makes me realize how good it is to be freed from our own bonds, such as the SN. This is wonderful.


Thanks, jm! That's good to hear! It is something that I am definitely working on being better at doing. For myself and others.

It's such a good feeling to look at all this Aquarius, and then Uranus soon in Aries signaling a new survival cycle.



More and more I am looking forward to this NN in Aquarius transit. All the Aquarius has affected me more than I ever thought it would. Brought me out of the cave and there's far more to come. Plus Pluto is exactly opposite my Uranus now and the fellowship with men cannot be denied. That's pretty good from an Aries.


Ah, Pluto opposition Uranus! You are truly moving into a new phase, jm. Some things old and unnecessary are probably being swept out of your life even now at this very moment. The will pass quickly, but you won't feel as if you really needed them anyhow. In many ways, a new beginning. Transiting Uranus moving into Aries along with NN Aquarius would also seem to suggest a major shift in energy. Definitely a positive and outgoing shift. Aquarius is revolutionary energy that is difficult if not impossible to contain. There is definitely a need there for social interaction, or fellowship with mankind in general.

10/8/07 10:55 PM  
Blogger jm said...

They are all struggling to stay afloat.

You got it brother.

So the scare is a big PR hype. They are like monsters in mythological battle now, but it came even sooner than I expected.

Big companies are really inefficient structures and resource hogs, and Capricorn Pluto demands efficiency. I think many of them will either need to break up, or go belly up.

Yes. Very very good point about the inefficiency. People don't realize how hard it is to win in the corporate world now. Some win big and most lose. Just because the CEOs are taking so much doesn't mean the businesses will be there tomorrow. That could be why that's happening.

I think the US will be at some point forced to reopen or rebuild some of the manufacturing capabilities that we have shipped overseas in the name of globalization. It will once again become cost effective to produce many our own goods and services locally, rather than internationally.

I never thought of this. It would be great. You know I read an interesting article on the failure of globalization and that there would be a return to nationalism next. It is a possibility since Capricorn rules boundaries. The return would be for economic survival rather than patriotic insanity. In fact a lot of insanity will disappear as the facts of life present themselves and empire building for resource mining is no longer feasible. All very very interesting. Uranus in Aries and new survival techniques. Oh, this conversation is fun!

believe that this is another part of the higher consciousness emerging from the mutual reception between Neptune and Uranus.

I've been with this one from the start.

The corporations are like keeping a pet mastodon in the kitchen. No go here.

10/8/07 10:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Some things old and unnecessary are probably being swept out of your life even now at this very moment. The will pass quickly, but you won't feel as if you really needed them anyhow.

I'm layin' down my burdens, man. Getting ready for some brand new ones. My 70 pound speakers need a lift so some muscle with the Pluto-Mars transit is forthcoming.

Aquarius is revolutionary energy that is difficult if not impossible to contain. There is definitely a need there for social interaction, or fellowship with mankind in general.

I've always been highly social, but this phase is entirely different. You are so right. The fellowship is altogether new. I was locked in battle with mankind all my life. I have a Mars-Uranus square natally and it expressed badly becuase of my lack of confidence, My Saturn in Leo.

But I have about 7 major Uranus aspects so I was a closet humanitarian. No longer! This has been incredible, the feeling of togetherness. of course all my Cancer intimacy needs had to go someplace, So humanity is the one!

10/8/07 11:09 PM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Another thing I'm gleaning from this conversation is your steady strength and focus. The followthrough. Taurus and Capricorn. This is part of the capricorn transit coming up. A focus of the scattering, exactly like you said, and you are showing how it's done. It's like harnessing universal energy. Pluto does that I think..

Thanks, jm! Well I try. I will say that I may be slow to warm up and get started, but when I do, and once I get rolling, like a rock tumbling down the side of a mountain, I don't stop until I get to where I'm going.

I am definitely looking forward to Pluto in Cap. ;-)

Aries can stick with it through sheer force of detrmination, but Capricorn does it naturally, possibly with less effort, contrary to what we might think.

Earth is strength, Fire is energy. Capricorn has deep strength and stamina (earth) and doesn't expend much effort on actually moving things, but Aries is certainly to be admired for those endless reserves of energy and optimism (fire). Very different approaches to similar situations. I think what Aries may lack in stamina, s/he makes up in quickness and agility.

People equate suffering and hardship with Saturn and Capricorn, but I'm not sure about this. Only if you break the law and get caught!

Ha ha. Poor Saturn. I think he just gets a bad rep. He's just doing his job and wants us to do ours well, even if he has to give you a somewhat urgent shove from time to time to remind you how it's supposed to be done, and when.

Pluto to my Mars. My greatest aim now is to express it and stay out of power struggles that will force it. I have one going and that's enough!

Lately I've backed out of almost every entanglement and this is a great self defense tactic at this point. I want a clear path to my destination and I mean to have it.


I think Pluto-Mars energy just likes that sort of thing. Maybe not each other so much, but they definitely love to rumble with something or someone. Yes, it is much better to call it out into the open than to try and suppress it.

It's amazing how we've followed one another's paths around here. Remember how trapped we were when we all met? things do really change when the time is right. You're getting ready to move, and I'm getting ready to conquer my city! Well, that wasn't so hard after all. :-)

We helped one another through the thorny thicket.


I really think so too, jm! You did certainly help me shake that negative streak that I got into a while back, and with some other things that I was going through. You are truly a kindred spirit, if not a soul mate. ;-) I very much appreciate your guidance, insight and kindness.

10/8/07 11:23 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Oh, neo. Your appreciation is one of my favorite things about you. You not only express it in words, you show it in deeds. No wonder your grandmother was proud of you.

I think everyone I knew was in negative mode back then. I was for me. I did not like it. Some have moved on, some haven't.

I may be slow to warm up and get started, but when I do, and once I get rolling, like a rock tumbling down the side of a mountain, I don't stop until I get to where I'm going.

OMG, how gorgeous. My dream. Now I really see this in you. It's stunning. Do you think perhaps those little Saturn returns did something? :-) You definitely know how to transfer energy. The SN in Aries carries a lot and the NN in Libra loves to share it.
It's a great gift to give energy and not very common. A lot of what passes as high energy exchange is actually draining. Very few have enough confidence to let go of life force and let others take it. The sign of a good leader.

I think what Aries may lack in stamina, s/he makes up in quickness and agility.

No doubt. The sprinter. But Pluto in Capricorn will ground the fire and frankly, I can hardly wait.

10/8/07 11:39 PM  
Blogger jm said...

If you're any indication of what it's like to have energy, I really am excited!

10/8/07 11:41 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Which gets to this obsession with power people are embroiled in. What's with all of that? The fear that someone is going to take it away. You either have it or you don't. All this protecting your power and not giving it away, or fearing another's perceived power. If you really have it, it's self generating and I would think one would be glad to give it away. The whole thing is ludicrous. Power, man. It's as overused a word as love. And just s misunderstood.

10/8/07 11:48 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Taoists hope to have a long earthly life of self discipline and awareness, cultivating the three treasures....vitality, energy, and spirit.

I very much like this idea.

11/8/07 12:14 AM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

So the scare is a big PR hype. They are like monsters in mythological battle now, but it came even sooner than I expected.

Same here. Definitely. I thought it was perhaps a few more years in the making. But the writing is already on the wall.

People don't realize how hard it is to win in the corporate world now. Some win big and most lose. Just because the CEOs are taking so much doesn't mean the businesses will be there tomorrow. That could be why that's happening.

I definitely agree. Profit margins for many companies are razor thin right now. A few minor, unexpected details can make all the difference between making a profitable quarter, or a loss. They definitely aren't doing as well as they'd like to be, most companies.

You know I read an interesting article on the failure of globalization and that there would be a return to nationalism next. It is a possibility since Capricorn rules boundaries. The return would be for economic survival rather than patriotic insanity. In fact a lot of insanity will disappear as the facts of life present themselves and empire building for resource mining is no longer feasible. All very very interesting. Uranus in Aries and new survival techniques. Oh, this conversation is fun!

I do enjoy talking about this stuff as well. ;-) I very much agree, jm. I think the patriotic nationalism was more a product of Pluto in Cancer. Sentimental and emotionally driven, of course carried to Plutonian extremes. I think you described the Capricorn side of this very well too. Much more about practical concerns and economic survival than flag waving and emotional appeals to the love of the "motherland".

I think we'll also see some redrawing of boundaries too on all levels. As far as the US is concerned, I think this will generally center around metropolitan areas. Perhaps a return to European-style "city-states"? At the very least, there's been enough talk about regional governance these past few years that it is likely to manifest after Pluto moves into Capricorn. I think it will be more about resource management than economic development, however.

I'm layin' down my burdens, man. Getting ready for some brand new ones. My 70 pound speakers need a lift so some muscle with the Pluto-Mars transit is forthcoming.

There you go! ;-)

But I have about 7 major Uranus aspects so I was a closet humanitarian. No longer! This has been incredible, the feeling of togetherness. of course all my Cancer intimacy needs had to go someplace, So humanity is the one!

And we are truly all the better for it. ;-)

I think everyone I knew was in negative mode back then. I was for me. I did not like it. Some have moved on, some haven't.

It was easy to be that way. But I'm glad we grew out of it. ;-)

OMG, how gorgeous. My dream. Now I really see this in you. It's stunning. Do you think perhaps those little Saturn returns did something? :-) You definitely know how to transfer energy. The SN in Aries carries a lot and the NN in Libra loves to share it.

It's a great gift to give energy and not very common. A lot of what passes as high energy exchange is actually draining. Very few have enough confidence to let go of life force and let others take it. The sign of a good leader.


Hmm... Very interesting! I never really was aware of that! I guess it is something just natural that I do. Perhaps I really have become better at it since my Saturn Return, though? Self actualization and the confidence awarded by Saturn perhaps? Maybe also since I have been trying to put more energy into my North Node over my South Node?

I think what Aries may lack in stamina, s/he makes up in quickness and agility.

No doubt. The sprinter. But Pluto in Capricorn will ground the fire and frankly, I can hardly wait.


Me neither!

If you're any indication of what it's like to have energy, I really am excited!

Well, I don't feel like I'm doing a whole lot actually. :-) Maybe it's all that Taurus-Cap earth energy stamina?

11/8/07 12:19 AM  
Blogger NEOBuckeye said...

Which gets to this obsession with power people are embroiled in. What's with all of that? The fear that someone is going to take it away. You either have it or you don't. All this protecting your power and not giving it away, or fearing another's perceived power. If you really have it, it's self generating and I would think one would be glad to give it away. The whole thing is ludicrous. Power, man. It's as overused a word as love. And just s misunderstood.

I don't get it either, jm. Maybe in part because I'm leaving SN behind for NN?

11/8/07 12:25 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Neo, you are so funny. You can really keep up with me. I surely did get to know you tonight.
I have to laugh. I am infinitely impressed.
I miss talking about these things and you are the best. I even ran up and cooked some noodles a minute ago. I'm getting into the swing of it. Applied energy!

Same here. Definitely. I thought it was perhaps a few more years in the making. But the writing is already on the wall.

You can't imagine how glad I am to hear this from you after the fears of the last years. It really did get out of hand when the group got a hold of it. Machines guns in the streets and all. It's always been about money.

I definitely agree. Profit margins for many companies are razor thin right now

Exactly the reason behind this latest tax game probably. Pluto will weed out the dying parts, and some are in for surprises. They're on pins and needles, all of them. Overreaching and paying for it is up next.

Well, I don't feel like I'm doing a whole lot actually. :-)

That's the point!! Trying too hard bleeds it all. Staying centered and not doing is the key. Oh, have I seen that tonight. I have seen the light!!!

Taurus is a fine energy. At best they don't make fast and unnecessary moves. I see this in the night club business. When it gets very busy some bartenders speed up and start fumblimg. Others barely change their pace and they keep up exactly. It's absolutely fascinating to witness. Keepin a steady pace wins the race, as the turtle knows. It's all physics of motion.
Add the consolidating Capricorn Moon and you, my friend, are in business.

Exactly. Shared power. It's exponential.

11/8/07 12:45 AM  
Anonymous The_Ninth_Immortal said...

It'd be a pity to put a damper on all these high spirits and relentless optimism about the future, so I'll restrain my negative self. :)

Hopefully the times ahead will be better ones. Certainly they could always be worse, and that would not be so great. But, perhaps, that is just the way of things. The great cosmic balancing act.

If Saturn in Virgo means tasks to be met, so much the better. The more you have to do, the less time you have to think. Pain begins in the heart and is amplified by the mind, tenfold. So, work - lots of ited - is good, and gratefully received.

Some notes, though, on what has been touched upon (in my usual random fashion).

Re. the Middle East, the ordinary people of this part of the world have always been ready for peace. But their leaderships, the regional interests of foreign powers, and the general indifference to the Palestinian plight by the major players has, since the dawn of European colonization and thereafter, sabotaged that peace.

The people of Iraq feel far from liberated. As a copy editor for the Middle East Times, I have spent much time working with stories recounting the horrors of daily life. It is hell there. Hell every day.

Granted, if we take into account the sweep of history, and the transition to freedom, peoples have often been subjected to violence, deprivation, and the rule of terror before a more stable, on occasion more 'liberated' time. But there is little hope for such things among ordinary Iraqis today. They have been betrayed by everyone. And whether or not we care to admit it, we are all - every last one of us in the West - responsible.

Guilt is not a constructive feeling. But I think remorse is very healthy. It hopefully prompts more commitment to ensuring such vicious political manoeuvring and Developed World apathy has less of a breeding ground. Or is that too much to hope for?

Forgive me the rant, but on some days - perhaps it's the optimism I read here this morning - I feel like I'm going to explode with fury. Quite irrational it is too, because, at the same time, I've been genuinely happy for the various folks professing hope for good things to come in their personal lives and for the collective - albeit in a very practical, pragmatic, work-oriented way (my Capricon Moon rejoices, as does my Pluto-Mars trine!).

I should say here: I love America. I, more than anything, want to have a chance to return, and to build a life for myself and my girlfriend. I love the can-do attitude, the optimism, the generosity, the freedom. I greatly respect the independence, vision, and self-sufficiency of its people.

But I am riven by a contradictory feeling, and that is that America, with its riches, strengths - and its own problems, of course - is somehow spared a lot of the despair and privation the rest of the world experiences. And for the most part, such despair and privation is often no more than a passing TV clip or news column in the local paper, buried somewhere toward the back.

Please don't misunderstand me; as someone who has lived in the US, I realise that the sheer scale of the country makes it well-nigh impossible to really feel that the rest of the world is as 'real' as one's immediate environment. Not to mention, there's plenty going on on the home front to communicate. I always point this out when I'm outside of America, talking to non-Americans.

I also realise that the universe has blessed the country with abundance, doubtless so that it is in the position to offer shelter and sustenance and new lives to the world's weary.

But not lately. And that hurts. For one thing, a truly shockingly low number of Iraqis have been offered asylum and citizenship here since the 2003 invasion, in comparison to how many have helped the US war effort at the very real to themselves and their families.

I am, to say the least, disheartened with the way the current political leadership has squandered America's bounty, and, even more killingly for someone who has spent so much of their life as a student, I am woebegone (great word, no?) that education in the States deprives so many people of a greater sense of their place in the world. That they are world citizens as well as American citizens.

And the right to vote! It's such a precious privilege, and not everyone in the States bothers. I hope whatever political apathy there has been in the country for the past many years will have been burned up by the time 2008 rolls round. For the sake of all of us.

Right. It appears I have exhausted my need to vent for now, so I'll make myself scarce.

Sorry to be the voice of fury and disenchantment when everyone else seems to be feeling so positive. I still very much appreciate the opportunity to read everyone's posts and to add my own. Thanks everyone.

And I was very heartened by Neo's comments to JM, that some people come into their own far later in life. That helped me a great deal. As did the idea that one can be released from various forms of imprisonment. It is possible. I live for that.

*Heh* I guess I'm taking the impending joblessness a little harder than I realised.

Pluto in Capricorn! Let's hope a lot of unjust policies and power structures come tumbling down, brick by pernicious brick. That's cause enough for jubilation.

11/8/07 3:46 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I think the pessimism is well placed ninth eye.

Pluto in Capricorn! Let's hope a lot of unjust policies and power structures come tumbling down, brick by pernicious brick. That's cause enough for jubilation.
And I don't think this will happen which certainly explains your pessimism.

My optimism is not based on actual events. It's based on my personal history. I'm always optimistic.

So what lies ahead, is both good and bad. I think that could be agreed upon.

11/8/07 4:17 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Lol.

This is the result of Pluto through Sagittarius. Renewed optimism. I dare anyone to tell me it isn't so.
jm


I did it.
I am fully responsible.

11/8/07 4:43 AM  
Blogger kj said...

ninth,

and an eloquent rant it was. :-)

and one i would certainly love to see plastered on the front page of every newspaper in America. today, tomorrow, the next day.

11/8/07 6:22 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"What is important? If anything. Do we attach false significance to circumstance in fear of the sameness, the continuum, the boredom, to create a feeling of aliveness? If the reason is for human drama, I suppose that's reason enough. Can we still experience the dramatic ebbs and flows recognizing their ultimate unimportance?"

Hmmmm. Yes, I think so. Well, you wrote that Taoists can see in terms of cycles and balance. Maybe dynamic balance is based on exquisitely fine imbalances.

A metaphor I've heard for "the way things are" (dharma, whatever) is the DNA spiral, two connected strands of "truth" that keep winding around each other.

What really matters? If too tied or attached to concepts of absolute truth, impermanence, or emptiness, then there's a tendency to feel that nothing really matters. If too lost or floundering in personal drama, then we lose sight of the bigger picture. Either way, we can easily go too far and become distorted reflections.

Grappling with personal issues will ultimately enlarge our ability to access the big picture, and the range of possibilities therein. In turn, the big picture or long view lets us derive wisdom from experience, helping with the personal work, refining our actions and their consequences.

So, a little back and forth, back and forth. Cycles, dynamic balance.

* * *

"What I see coming up is a coming together of the needs of youth with the need of the old when Uranus in Aries squares Pluto in Capricorn. The interesting part will be Saturn in Libra. The compromise. Fascinating."

I agree. There could be tension of competing demands in society and government between the youthful and the ageful, but they might also begin to discover that they can help each other with their respective gifts. The youthful and the ageful could be like a connected double helix, if they wished. It already connects them in other ways. A radical vision?

11/8/07 9:16 AM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

On the wheel of fortune, youth points to the rim, but wisdom moves to the center. (I read something like that once in a book by Joseph Campbell).

The Way is disengagement with the wheel of fortune, moving toward the still point.

If we are still jumping ship on the way down and jumping on another on another we perceive as moving up, we aren't there. We're still on the rim of the wheel.

11/8/07 11:31 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Hmmmm. Yes, I think so. Well, you wrote that Taoists can see in terms of cycles and balance. Maybe dynamic balance is based on exquisitely fine imbalances.

I think so too. The imbalances create the movement from my view. The cramp and release like peristalsis that gets a person through. So the imbalances are ultimately part of the whole equilibrium. Maybe some get further invested in more extreme sensations but that could have reasoning others don't perceive.

We don't know if the present life's behaviors are balancing another lifetime, so live and let live is probably the way!

In terms of extreme emotions surrounding others' philosophies, it becomes interesting which is what Pluto in Sagittarius has highlighted. Why such visceral reactions to ideas, not one's own, with no way to force their imposition? This is common. Where does the threat originate?

The whole overview worldwide of religious-political differences has been the canopy above the personal discord philosophically, yet these differences are healthy. Maybe in a few years they will find some harmony. The double helix.

A metaphor I've heard for "the way things are" (dharma, whatever) is the DNA spiral, two connected strands of "truth" that keep winding around each other.

Like that one.

I'm looking forward to the youth-age dynamic since I like teenagers so much. They get a mixed mesage. The youth culture is elevated for money-making purposes, but still their serious input is overlooked which perpetuates nonsense. I've know some pretty smart kids and I hope this is cultivated. Maybe there will be more crossover as you suggest.

11/8/07 1:46 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The Way is disengagement with the wheel of fortune, moving toward the still point.

I've thought about this a lot in the last few years working with a central point consciously with intent to spend more time there, using it as the base of operations. I also use the image of the Wheel of Fortune often. I know the wheel swings from second to second as well as in a whole lifetime, and the goal is not there. It's the substance of daily life in the earthly dimension. A continuum. It probably makes no difference which ship we jump on since we have the mechanism that seeks experience on the wheel, but it would be great to see the equal value of them all, rather than escape from circumstance.

I like this reminder.

Is most eveyone trying to get on the opposite ship? Or more of the same?

Sometimes I think people get stuck in adverse circumstances not trusting the less painful, but it seems that maybe the path to detachment and the center would be through the opposites. The wheel is just events. So there must be a way to stay centered and still experience the wheel in lieu of a whole lifetime of excruciatingly exact spiritual study in retreat.

11/8/07 2:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Can we still experience the dramatic ebbs and flows recognizing their ultimate unimportance?

We shall see.
And I'm not going back to the monastery!

11/8/07 2:27 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"We don't know if the present life's behaviors are balancing another lifetime, so live and let live is probably the way!"

I'm inclined to feel that everyone has their own path to follow at their own pace. The specific forms and practices could be almost anything, a religion, a job, volunteering, a hobby, as long it draws people into more spacious levels.

And "positive" things and "negative" things pass away -- impermanence, emptiness, spaciousness. Sometimes I wonder at the connotations of words, though, after translation from other languages and cultures.

I see the spiral metaphor as implying cyclical refinement over time. Most people will have alternate periods of quiet and socialization, etc. A kind of asymptotic approach. The spiral describing what people tend to do, perhaps not so much reality itself.

I like the wheel image a lot, too. Although it might seem that no physical spinning wheel could have an absolutely still center, it's not meant to represent a physical wheel, and the movement toward the center is the thing.

Hmm. It occurs to me that a rotating wheel moving through space could trace a path resembling a double spiral. Topological transformations of each other. The tai chi symbol, the ying-yang is the result.

In other words, we need to mark two points on the rim of a circle. This is equivalent to the astrological opposition. We then rotate the circle and move it through space, just as the solar system does. The points trace out two spirals. Flattened out just as we look at the horoscope chart, it looks like the tai chi symbol, or the solar system.

I'll make a quick diagram: tai chi

I must've seen something like it somewhere before. Not sure if it means anything, but it's pretty.

11/8/07 5:42 PM  
Blogger jm said...

That's a good one. It's pretty easy to see the dichotomy of it all. I like the spiral image.

I gave it some thought and I'm not sure about this effort to stay in the center away from the wheel of fortune. And you're right. I think the center moves too.

In the center the circle of motion is smaller, so maybe all that is indicated is a preference for wide swings in sensation or smaller ones. I don't think it makes a difference. It's personal preference.

The bigger wheel could actually be a center of soemthing else, so I might be revising my philosophy.

11/8/07 7:52 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Very nice diagram, by the way, for a quickie.

11/8/07 7:54 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I gave it some thought and I'm not sure about this effort to stay in the center away from the wheel of fortune. And you're right. I think the center moves too."

Unless all movement is illusory, which is hard to think about! :-)

Well, if I remember correctly, the buddhist meditation teacher whose interview I remembered, felt that impermanence, essential emptiness really is absolute truth, but he refrained from saying that nothing matters. He recognized the usefulness of a range of approaches to help people along. So I like the utility of his explanation, even though he probably didn't mean that the helix metaphor represents what's absolutely real.

I don't have a well-defined opinion about those things, being more practically oriented. But I feel a Tibetan buddhist connection in my soul. I should probably make a point to investigate.

I made the diagram using the Viso program. The old days of compasses, ruling pens and accidental inkblots are so over!

"The bigger wheel could actually be a center of something else, so I might be revising my philosophy."

Oh, wow.

11/8/07 9:00 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Unless all movement is illusory, which is hard to think about! :-)

I don't bother with that stuff. It's real enough and I'm OK with the material dimension.

I made the diagram using the Viso program.
The old days of compasses, ruling pens and accidental inkblots are so over!


Modern times! Sounds like fun these graphics programs. I do like this one you did. It has a good feel about it. Might get into the programs in my old old age. Can't imagine what will be available then.:-)

impermanence, essential emptiness really is absolute truth

I doubt it. And I don't think humans know this for sure. It's conjecture. "absolute truth?" Hmmmmmm.

I had a vision of the universe recently as a system of interconnecting wheels, like gears that keep life in motion. I always have had a concept of everything possibly being part of a larger thing, the small thing magnified.

I had a lot of experience with the masters in the East and the words are platitudes. It strikes me as presumptuous to think that one knows the whole meaning of the Truth. I know it's false. Everyone is seeking and the mystery remains just that. I tend to identify more with the creative thought from each person I encounter.

The more I live the more amazed I am at how little people know of the truth or whatever you want to call it, both in spiritual matters and material. The systems on earth, political, social, etc., are extremely dense, complicated, and convoluted. No one knows that I know of. Stunning how little they know. And people are in charge supposedly?

11/8/07 9:50 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I don't bother with that stuff. It's real enough and I'm OK with the material dimension."

It is what it is. :-)

"Modern times! Sounds like fun these graphics programs. I do like this one you did. It has a good feel about it. Might get into the programs in my old old age. Can't imagine what will be available then. :-)"

I hope they get cheaper, so that everyone can have them.

"And I don't think humans know this for sure. It's conjecture. "absolute truth?" Hmmmmmm."

Sometimes I'm curious how people arrive at beliefs. Something pre-verbal, possibly. It seems to have a broad influence on their thought process, their politics, psychology, and behavior.

"I had a vision of the universe recently as a system of interconnecting wheels, like gears that keep life in motion. I always have had a concept of everything possibly being part of a larger thing, the small thing magnified."

That's like the holographic or holodynamic idea.

"I had a lot of experience with the masters in the East and the words are platitudes. It strikes me as presumptuous to think that one knows the whole meaning of the Truth. I know it's false. Everyone is seeking and the mystery remains just that. I tend to identify more with the creative thought from each person I encounter."

You seem strangely familiar. ;-)

Hey, speaking of creating, Anonymous gave us something more to work with in the other thread. A great love of music!

11/8/07 10:22 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Sometimes I'm curious how people arrive at beliefs.

Very very good question. I'd love to explore this.

Something pre-verbal, possibly

I think so. A sense of the universe that seems to be innate in each individual and colors their entire lives. I think it's simple too. Probably the whole system is based on some basic perceptions, definitely nonverbal. I can easily predict reactions to just about anything in the people I know and this belief setup most likely is the root of response.

Astrologically, could it be the Moon?

I'm not really conversant with the holographic theory but what I've heard makes sense.

You seem strangely familiar.

Love that phrase.:-)
This is the most common reaction when people meet me for the first time. "Don't I know you from somewhere?" It's uncanny how often I hear this. Then they struggle to place it. I use to wrack my brains trying to help them figure it out and now I just smile inside and say, "No".

I noticed the turn of events on the other thread! Excellent. Warmth is emerging. Feeling. Music does seem to be an equalizer.

11/8/07 10:49 PM  
Blogger jm said...

In India especially they recognized me and they would tell where to go in my life. Sometimes to another town. They were always guiding me, and I trusted them immediately. It was as though they were my elders or some such thing, like they knew me better than I knew myself.

11/8/07 10:53 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Very very good question. I'd love to explore this."

An examination of how or when people change strong beliefs might be revealing.

"I can easily predict reactions to just about anything in the people I know and this belief setup most likely is the root of response. Astrologically, could it be the Moon?"

Hmm. Symbolically, that sounds very plausible. Maybe consider diametrically opposed types.

Oh, well. I better get some rest. It's been a long week. :-) Good night!

11/8/07 11:21 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Good night kad. :-)

11/8/07 11:43 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I just looked at your spiral again and it's gorgeous. Clear and elegant.

12/8/07 3:11 AM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

The more I live the more amazed I am at how little people know of the truth or whatever you want to call it, both in spiritual matters and material. The systems on earth, political, social, etc., are extremely dense, complicated, and convoluted. No one knows that I know of. Stunning how little they know. And people are in charge supposedly?

I had this realization very young.. I wrote a poem as a teenager...

where are my teachers?
everyone clings to fragments-

When I saw that so clearly so young, I believed that in all this world most never even try. That most everyone just assumes a negative, so I tried to walk thru those doors. I believe I got further than a great many who had far greater talent, but did not have a vision. I saw a great many things, truths internally consistent and beautiful like crystal. I could hear the spirits of old shamans in the desert hills.

But my great yang now has turned to yin...

I didn't do the performance last night. The wind was high and I bailed out. I thought of all the performances I'd done and all I wanted to do was meet up with friends and play, somewhere out in a park or a mountain peak, unobserved by spectators. I just want the faces of friends. I just want to play now, not perform. I'm at a different space now. Very childlike.

12/8/07 8:52 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I just looked at your spiral again and it's gorgeous. Clear and elegant."

Thank you. You just made me look at it again. Now I think it could be like an official logo for an organization or a person.

12/8/07 10:25 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"That most everyone just assumes a negative, so I tried to walk thru those doors. I believe I got further than a great many who had far greater talent, but did not have a vision. ...I just want the faces of friends. I just want to play now, not perform. I'm at a different space now. Very childlike."

That's very interesting, mpk. :-)

Does your earlier exploration add to your appreciation of the childlike space?

12/8/07 10:35 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Clear and elegant"

One thing I like about it is how I can see convergence in it. The convergence could also mean beyond perception. From one perspective, it might seem finite and bounded, but maybe not. It could be an opening to a more spacious condition. On another level, it could also symbolize the ongoing future beyond foreseeing.

The concentric circles help the effect. If I view it as a wheel which turns, then the dots on the circles mark a graceful arc of movement towards the center. No right angles -- indeed, no straight lines -- which seems fitting from a feng shui point of view. It suggests a path of less resistance or friction to the turning of the wheel, and yet there is some kind of movement towards the central area which is left beautifully blank and undefined.

12/8/07 10:51 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"indeed, no straight lines"

Okay, so, now I see polarizing ideas represented in it.

People tend to see in gestalts, and the gestalts can shift. As this Discordian explanation, which I came across recently, explains about our notions of shape, boundaries and order/disorder, "Conceptualization is art, and you are the artist."

So the softening of oppositional relationship is implied by the two moving points on curving paths that avoid falling into left/right/up/down (etc.) extremes as they move. The straight line of opposition is never literally represented in the diagram.

The movement through time (either looking at the diagram as 2D wheel or as a 3D tunnel) implies lessening perception/fixation on projected extremes for those who feel identified as the dots.

Then, it is also like a vortex or whirlpool in nature. Rotation creates either centripetal or centrifugal force, depending on what one chooses to perceive and therefore attract.

But then again, a mountain is a mountain, a cigar is a cigar, and a diagram is a diagram. :-)

12/8/07 11:23 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I just want the faces of friends. I just want to play now, not perform. I'm at a different space now. Very childlike.

I've been like this for some time. You have the Saturn-Sun conjunction which is like my Saturn in Leo taking performance very very seriously. This can remove people from the spontaneous joy. Feeling comfortable in the spotlight doesn't come easily. Fear of making mistakes is big, the too strong grip on perfection needs.
The childlike space is really the answer. the child who is so full of self enchantment at the moment that the audience can't help but experience the joy.

Sometimes with too many planets in a sign, the thing fails. I went to a party recently and it was a dud. So I'm wondering what happened with yours.

When I saw that so clearly so young, I believed that in all this world most never even try. That most everyone just assumes a negative, so I tried to walk thru those doors.

I saw it, too, a long time ago. I always ask, "Who's really in charge?"
I suppose I've actually always been comforted by the knowledge that no one is and this probably led me to metaphysics in such a complete way.

I'm also comforted by you and the knowledge that the others who are aware are venturing forth and speaking up. There are always just the right amount of advanced people in the collective and I'm very encouraged by this trend. Very.

Kadimiros and I started having these conversations years ago, but now it seems like more are joining in on the high level I so enjoy. So very very much. But one has to be disengaged in some way from the crowd's perceptions and actions, ideally without anger or resentment. Metaphysical people just see it entirely differently. Invested in a different way, not depending on specific outcomes.

I thoroughly enjoy experiencing your perceptions.

12/8/07 2:10 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Your spiral of life.

I thought about this and one thing I like about you, kadimiros. How you did this for pleasure, both yours and ours, spontaneously, and so well. The attention and energy you put into the moment and your engagement with people beyond the ordinary. I like it.

People race past one anther trying so hard to grab something even they can't perceive. This makes others rush too fast to articulate and the words don't find a home. This is exacerbated by the false praise and so called admiration of less than stellar utterances. Other than that...
Of course, I enjoy socializing so I can be with it in the moment.

The spiral illuminates the ideal I search for where communication plays around together and spirals progressively in a logical pattern.

The identity with the yin-yang symbol excites me.

On another level, it could also symbolize the ongoing future beyond foreseeing.

I get this. The prediction of ultimate harmony in the future.
It expresses the convergence and the integrity of separation too. Opposites forming a wave-curve.

Oppositions seem rigid and structured at first, so this changes it entirely. They can't connect on one level or they wouldn't be opposite, but beyond the moment (or within):-), they find some unison in this elegant convergent form. Very beautiful.

From one perspective, it might seem finite and bounded, but maybe not. It could be an opening to a more spacious condition.

Exactly.

The concentric circles help the effect. If I view it as a wheel which turns, then the dots on the circles mark a graceful arc of movement towards the center. No right angles -- indeed, no straight lines -

Well, you know my opinion of the right angle! This verifies.

there is some kind of movement towards the central area which is left beautifully blank and undefined.

Yes the beautiful and gracious blank center. A perfect representation of what we've been talking about with concentric circles and society. The oppositions are expressed in that elegant way by this, and thus their usefulness is clear.

The blank center is the ultimate pleasure for me. All possibilty lies there maybe as a symbol of where the circles are headed with oppositions in tow. Very very good. I'm so glad you created it.

12/8/07 2:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

So the softening of oppositional relationship is implied by the two moving points on curving paths that avoid falling into left/right/up/down (etc.) extremes as they move. The straight line of opposition is never literally represented in the diagram.

Exactly. That's what I was saying above before getting to this one! The loosening of rigidity, and therein lies the excessive grip maybe. Peolpe know they will not be able to maintain the hard separation ultimately. This might effect my reading of oppositions in the chart which I already suspected were pretty packed with good potential.

implies lessening perception/fixation on projected extremes

Exactly again.

Then, it is also like a vortex or whirlpool in nature.

And the interesting thing, again so elegant, is that the vortex goes in the opposite direction below and above the equator.

Do we live in a magnificent universe or not?

12/8/07 3:01 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Great Discordian illustration with the 5 pebbles! Anyone can get it!

Conceptualization is art, and you are the artist.

12/8/07 3:11 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Feeling comfortable in the spotlight doesn't come easily. Fear of making mistakes is big, the too strong grip on perfection needs."

And the blog has helped, no doubt.

"Of course, I enjoy socializing so I can be with it in the moment."

Well, it's entertaining. I play along. The fun aspect. ;-) Sometimes, we have tremendous isolation in being too different too young. The individual not finding a purchase in the people around.

And I know you have great charm when you wish, and it is a mercy that you haven't unleashed its full effect on the rest of us poor mortals. ;-)

"How you did this for pleasure, both yours and ours, spontaneously, and so well. The attention and energy you put into the moment and your engagement with people beyond the ordinary. I like it."

The discovery is best, if unforced. I have always felt that it is our way of playing with each other at this time. Astrology being a little bit of a lingua franca. I don't truly need to figure out the secrets of the universe, or define my identity by opposing society (or some segment of it), etc. If I did want to do those things, there are other paths I could have followed. I just am.

"Well, you know my opinion of the right angle! This verifies."

Of course! :-) We were just pretending not to know sometimes. Even the base perimeter of the Great Pyramid is not truly at right angles, people just think that it is. (It is indented on every side.) So there is a clue there, perhaps.

"Yes the beautiful and gracious blank center. A perfect representation of what we've been talking about with concentric circles and society. The oppositions are expressed in that elegant way by this, and thus their usefulness is clear."

Yes, and the curved paths can suggest a different quality of engagement/disentanglement with society, even politically. That is, engage in a smoother, rounder, graceful way. So we can put, say, the confrontations aside in our old age, leaving those things to hordes of hormone-crazed young people.

12/8/07 3:51 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And I know you have great charm when you wish, and it is a mercy that you haven't unleashed its full effect on the rest of us poor mortals.

Ha ha!! Unleash is the word.

Yes, and the curved paths can suggest a different quality of engagement/disentanglement with society, even politically. That is, engage in a smoother, rounder, graceful way. So we can put, say, the confrontations aside in our old age, leaving those things to hordes of hormone-crazed young people.

LOL! One blessing of advanced age.
Disentanglement seems to be the progression. I am just getting into this phase now I think. It is a great reward.

Time probably increases the chance of the roundness developing according to the diagram, which factors in my theory of time and memory creating curve.

Yes, the blog is helping with perfection issues. It's too much in realtime and unrehearsed. When I reread I could easily be embarrassed according to nature, but I'm too busy creating my next gem! It's noticed but forgotten. The whole embarrassment around exposure dilemma is the one to learn from.

I don't truly need to figure out the secrets of the universe, or define my identity by opposing society (or some segment of it), etc.

Excellent.

12/8/07 4:09 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The blank center is the ultimate pleasure for me. All possibilty lies there maybe as a symbol of where the circles are headed with oppositions in tow. Very very good. I'm so glad you created it."

It's also a collective creation, of course.

I like the aesthetic feeling over and above interpreting it.

It's like a yantra for aesthetic contemplation. It also reminds me of a dreamcatcher decorated with beads and feathers, the sacred net or web. And the web has reminded me before of your blog, where butterflies come to sip at the dew of your blog articles.

I'll look dreamcatcher up in the on-line encyclopedia. Quote:

"Only good dreams would be allowed to filter through...Bad dreams would stay in the net, disappearing with the light of day."

12/8/07 4:10 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This might effect my reading of oppositions in the chart which I already suspected were pretty packed with good potential."

Yes! I agree. I sensed potential for exactly a different approach to reading oppositional qualities.

"And the interesting thing, again so elegant, is that the vortex goes in the opposite direction below and above the equator. Do we live in a magnificent universe or not?"

Absolutely.

12/8/07 4:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Even the base perimeter of the Great Pyramid is not truly at right angles, people just think that it is. (It is indented on every side.) So there is a clue there, perhaps.

Yes, I remember when you mentioned this and how it got my antennae wiggling. I'm not through with the right angle yet! the discussion that is.

12/8/07 4:12 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I like the aesthetic feeling over and above interpreting it.

I love the aesthetic. And you know how much I like black & white, gray included.

It's like a yantra for aesthetic contemplation. It also reminds me of a dreamcatcher decorated with beads and feathers, the sacred net or web. And the web has reminded me before of your blog, where butterflies come to sip at the dew of your blog articles.

How beautiful. Encouragement is the real dew.

12/8/07 4:16 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Every dewdrop of praise we give one another balances the collective angst, the fear of power, and the diminishing of the individual. Not that hard.

12/8/07 4:18 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Of course, the mighty opposition of hate is necessary to remind us as we curve into infinity all together!

12/8/07 4:20 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

The rotating pair is like the retrograde motion of the Moon's Nodes.

12/8/07 4:28 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

And the blank space reminds me of the dream I had in December of the blinding convergence from which emerged the entity.

Something about the merging of male and female aspects of the psyche. (I feel that I've had a balanced set of male and female lifetimes.) And something from Tibet. I guess I'll consider that further at some point.

12/8/07 4:32 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Every dewdrop of praise we give one another balances the collective angst, the fear of power, and the diminishing of the individual. Not that hard."

Yeppers. Can't add to that. :-)

12/8/07 4:33 PM  
Blogger jm said...

OMG!!!!!! The motion of the nodes. My god in the universe!

Kad, you are a genius! This is going to get thorough investigation. I am convinced, as you know, that the nodes are the essential opposition in the life.

Something about the merging of male and female aspects of the psyche. (I feel that I've had a balanced set of male and female lifetimes.)

I'd bet on it. I've been thinking about the blank center. This is wonderful. More forthcoming shortly.:-)

12/8/07 7:06 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This is going to get thorough investigation. I am convinced, as you know, that the nodes are the essential opposition in the life."

Yes, the Nodes. It's an interesting reminder. Your special insight might have fun with it.

The intersection of the Sun and Moon. The Nodes seem opposed, but they are also symbols of union -- the solar and lunar eclipses happen at them. Could suggest a continual processing through which society and individuals pass.

According to a tantric tradition, the yogi gains powers throughout his evolution until he encounters the center of wish-fulfillment associated with the North Node. There, the yogi's wishes become universal needs. And at the crown center, he has transcended the desire to manifest his powers. The crown center itself is associated with the South Node, and within it is the center associated with the North Node. It all represents a more inclusive domain than the Saturn-related level of mental or psychic vision. The head as a whole generally has an association with the Moon.

12/8/07 10:15 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Kad, you are a genius!"

Nah, I'm just free-associating. :-) I'm not going around saying that the associations themselves, and esoteric symbolism, are too literally true -- remembering the Discordian explanation about patterns of dots -- but contemplation can be a helpful source of guidance or inspiration.

12/8/07 10:24 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Anyway, a mention of the Nodes seems appropriate enough, because (as you said in the thread above this one) today the Sun and Moon conjoin in Leo opposite Neptune in Aquarius.

12/8/07 10:29 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The Nodes seem opposed, but they are also symbols of union -- the solar and lunar eclipses happen at them. Could suggest a continual processing through which society and individuals pass.

I think it does. The spiral. Your spiral. This is making sublime sense. Oh how I love your diagram. Images are so expressive. I was reminded once again.

The nodes to me are the quintessential paradox of existence. I have to think about the eclipse factor. The solar lunar arrangement to me is symbolic of the whole yin-yang of life. The nodes are a great opportunity.

According to a tantric tradition, the yogi gains powers throughout his evolution until he encounters the center of wish-fulfillment associated with the North Node. There, the yogi's wishes become universal needs. And at the crown center, he has transcended the desire to manifest his powers. The crown center itself is associated with the South Node, and within it is the center associated with the North Node.

Oh my god in the cosmos. I didn't know this. You are so connected I am stunned, besides being a genius which I see you have some comment on just below.

This whole paragraph on the nodes blows my already expanded mind. The Moon connection with the head you suggest.

I am nonplussed. I never thought of them as connecting in a more universal way but I know the truth of this. I just got it. I see it in my own experience. Omg.

Thank you for adding to my area of expertise. :-)

12/8/07 10:53 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Now my lament last night about my Taurus node is clear. This is so good I can't quite leave it. Thankfully I have time with that NN in action!

but contemplation can be a helpful source of guidance or inspiration.

Contemplation is tops. This diagram of yours has resonated so much I can feel it imprinting permanently. Very clear, bold, illuminating, and graceful. Perfect, actually. We can be perfect if we want to. Shhhh....

Anyway, a mention of the Nodes seems appropriate enough, because (as you said in the thread above this one) today the Sun and Moon conjoin in Leo opposite Neptune in Aquarius.

Of course. No wonder we're shining all together. I knew this lunation was going to be interesting. The Pisces part will be too.

12/8/07 10:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Btw, lunar eclipse on the full moon coming up.

12/8/07 10:59 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm just starting to realize some of my goals with RU which needless to say are high. It's been slow and steady, and I have had no real guarantee that it would develop along my clearly visualized lines. It's much more than me, of course. You would know that.

This lunation, and the way you put things, is bringing some of it home. The high level of Uranian awareness along with the solar ability to express with great confidence and pride. I was seeking advanced and fascinating people with soul quality as well. Great intellects with love of social progress. The very best. Like you!

12/8/07 11:05 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Jesus god in heaven. Could it have something to do with this moon exactly on your NORTH NODE in LEO!!!!!!

12/8/07 11:09 PM  
Blogger jm said...

OMG. I just got it! According to the yogic theory, the NN in Leo for you would be the path to the universal. The SN is in the sign of the universal. So this would mean that within the group your solar individuality would develop, not by being subservient to the group's need, but by leading the people. Attention primarily paid to your own central self automatically benefits the universal. Well, I knew that, but I like the yogic explanation.

12/8/07 11:13 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I am nonplussed. I never thought of them as connecting in a more universal way but I know the truth of this. I just got it. I see it in my own experience. Omg."

Really?!? That's great! I am so pleased. So, mpk's explanation of the wheel, and my remembering the tai chi circle, has somehow expanded your perspective.

We should thank analysa, too. She wants to connect the personal with the universal. Maybe that's a solar-lunar thing, too, in a way. Somehow the things she's said over the past week led us here, yes?

12/8/07 11:21 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Jesus god in heaven. Could it have something to do with this moon exactly on your NORTH NODE in LEO!!!!!!"

Oh, hahaha! Is that where they are today? You know I'm only a light-hearted dabbler. You're the real astrologer.

12/8/07 11:24 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Oh my god in the cosmos. I didn't know this."

Most people don't. I got that information from a book I have on my shelf. I tried to strip the material down a bit. It all sounds like mumbo jumble, anyway, what with the flowery layers of Eastern symbolism, so it doesn't get much traction with Western astrologers. It doesn't really make a lot of sense on its own, but somehow I sense some connection with your interest areas of the Nodes, individual, and society.

12/8/07 11:32 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Great intellects with love of social progress. The very best. Like you!"

Thank you. :-) It's been a great way to stretch ourselves. It's been a good relaxing summer month. There will be periods when I can't play on-line as much, but that's okay in the big picture. I knew you could attract people to help expand. And the interactions can be very good for people, with a light touch. Something for everyone.

12/8/07 11:43 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"OMG. I just got it! According to the yogic theory, the NN in Leo for you would be the path to the universal. The SN is in the sign of the universal. So this would mean that within the group your solar individuality would develop, not by being subservient to the group's need, but by leading the people. Attention primarily paid to your own central self automatically benefits the universal. Well, I knew that, but I like the yogic explanation."

Oh, that's good. Yes, I was just beginning to wonder what it meant. It's interesting. The NN center does not go away, despite being amidst the crown. And it's not at the very peak of the crown, but towards the front side of the head. From one perspective, it's self-contained, yet relating. No real conflict with the universe.

12/8/07 11:54 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

So, it moves on a path towards the center of the wheel? Hmm.

12/8/07 11:56 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"The unimportance of importance." Something to ponder.

13/8/07 12:01 AM  
Blogger jm said...

So, mpk's explanation of the wheel, and my remembering the tai chi circle, has somehow expanded your perspective.

We should thank analysa, too. She wants to connect the personal with the universal. Maybe that's a solar-lunar thing, too, in a way. Somehow the things she's said over the past week led us here, yes?


Yes to all of it. In some ways I think analysa really kicked it off. Gave it the energy. That was a fascinating thread as it wound around in unusual ways.

Analysa has a Moon-Saturn in Pisces in the third and she is very very much trying to connect the personal with the universal. She will too. Uranus is headed right there. Good thoughts.

13/8/07 12:35 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I tried to strip the material down a bit.

You did a fantastic job. I got it immediately and man, is it useful.

There will be periods when I can't play on-line as much, but that's okay in the big picture.

You may come and go entirely as you please. Like you always do. No explanations ever required. Not even good-byes. Remember my Venus-Uranus conjunction? The leash that never was. Explanations, excuses, and justifications ruin everything. Freedom is high on my list. :-)

As far as people keeping it moving and interesting, guess what I'm going to do? Leave that to the director. I'm just creating pictures and poetic prose. And making myself available.

The NN center does not go away, despite being amidst the crown. And it's not at the very peak of the crown, but towards the front side of the head.

Very good information.

"The unimportance of importance." Something to ponder.

This fits into the nutshell for me. I'll tell you later, on a blog entry, what happened on this thread for me in terms of this.

13/8/07 12:48 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I make no demands on the future. Everyone could disappear tomorrow and I'd do something else. With so much Uranus in me I'm used to things happening abruptly, and I'm still pretty much a laissez-faire, leave it to chance human being. Doubt if that will change.

Even when I was in so-called bondage, we were free to go at any time. And we did. Come and go.

Pluto is opposite my Uranus now and I am in the process of establishing the most freedom I've ever had. I belong to myself, so what others do should be simple to adjust to. I'm not looking for permanent bondage, but if anyone wants to stay, they're welcome. I'm fairly independent when push comes to shove, although I hope it doesn't come to that often!

Health and freedom are all I want. The rest will follow.

13/8/07 1:02 AM  
Blogger jm said...

The thing out there is my witness anyway.

13/8/07 1:05 AM  
Blogger jm said...

At one point in my life the agonized scream of humanity that someone was doing something to hurt them appeared ludicrous to me. I've always looked around and thought, "who really is the victim?"

The people around the world under oppression are playing karmic domination games and there's nothing anyone else can do about it. That's why it doesn't change. And they draw others into their karma. They'll have to change through time when they want to and when they're ready. They use their oppressors.

After over a half a century trying to help troubled people I realized that they do what they do for reasons and will change when it's best for them.

No one was born to fix another person's life. They all have problems of their own, and we are the best ones to do that job for ourselves anyway. We help when we can.

The less we demand that others rescue us or become icons of what we wish we were, the more chance there is to truly enjoy human company and to grow into who we want to be. It's our jobs.

I think this new moon in Leo opposite Neptune in Aquarius is helping us see the significance of who and where we are. It's no mistake, the luck of the draw.

13/8/07 2:25 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This fits into the nutshell for me. I'll tell you later, on a blog entry, what happened on this thread for me in terms of this."

I'm looking forward to it. I'm happy to see that RU has been good for you. Although your music might call you away more in future, which is fine. :-)

"I think this new moon in Leo opposite Neptune in Aquarius is helping us see the significance of who and where we are. It's no mistake, the luck of the draw."

Well said!

13/8/07 7:49 AM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

Wow, you guys have left me in the dust. I will have to return to this and study. Good thing I've never needed to understand everything that's going on, my inner compass seems to work anyway when my mind can't make the leap. JM, I wish I understood the nodes and more about my own chart enough to fully grasp this. My north node is conjunct my ascendant.

I don't truly need to figure out the secrets of the universe, or define my identity by opposing society (or some segment of it), etc. If I did want to do those things, there are other paths I could have followed. I just am.

I'm here in part because I sense something emergent that isn't yet born either into my consciousness or maybe into human consciousness yet, at least not in any widespread way. Some emergent form form rises in space and time but I can't apprehend it. Either I don't have the structure to hold it or it isn't born yet? Or both? Like something you can't quite remember but it's on the tip of your tongue.
I feel it just beyond the edge of the horizon, a truly new knowledge or a new grasp of knowledge. Something emergent. It's not just a connection, but enough connections could lead me to be able to sketch the form of it. It's when enough connections are made that the new emergent awareness may come?

implies lessening perception/fixation on projected extremes

Brilliant.


One thing to add... with all this discussion of Discordianism, did anyone notice that now the biggest Dwarf Planet known in the solar system is Eris, Goddess of Discordianism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eris_%28dwarf_planet%29
What could this mean?

13/8/07 3:25 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Unbelievable kadimiros.

I'm looking forward to it. I'm happy to see that RU has been good for you. Although your music might call you away more in future, which is fine. :-)

This is exactly what the lesson of the thread was. I will definitely tell you shortly.

Uncanny, but of course, not at all surprising. Things are working out.

13/8/07 3:55 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Really mpk. It's you who are kicking up the dust. You started the whole thread, if you recall, not to mention the crack in the rock that won't quit.

JM, I wish I understood the nodes and more about my own chart enough to fully grasp this. My north node is conjunct my ascendant.

Omg. This is unusual and quite potent. I have it in the 1st so I have the same dilemma, but not on the ASC. Very very interesting. Boy do I know.
I'll post the node articles and after you read them I can combine them if you wish in a personal explanation. The nodes are fantastic. You will use the information well.

The change you are feeling ahead could be connected with Pluto coming to your ASC. What degree is your Capricorn rising?

I haven't formed my theories about Eris, but maybe now I will.

Your arrival here has sparked change, mpk, and it has yet to reveal itself fully. I am very interested in the events unfolding.

13/8/07 4:03 PM  
Blogger m.p.k. said...

I don't know how long this stays up, but here is my chart:

http://crystal.alabe.com/cgi-bin/chart/43261873.gif

13/8/07 4:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Pluto acros the ASC is a rebirth of large proportion. Sometimes there is profound questioning about identity and where your life is headed just before the crossing. A journey through the past difficulties getting ready to abandon old habits and create a new life with new patterns.

The NN in the 1st is a lifelong quest for identity, more specific than most, and requiring separation from others at intervals. More and more as time progresses.

NN in the 1st

SN in the 7th

NN in capriocrn

SN in Cancer

The greatest period of achievemnet is coming up for you in alignment with your own goals for the first time, probably. The SN in Cancer in the 7th is a big one and after you read these I'm sure you will be interested in some conversation. It's not too complicated.

13/8/07 4:19 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Thank you!!!!! The chart!

This will make it infinitely easy and pleasurable.

13/8/07 4:20 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Very very very very interesting. Pluto on the MC square the nodes. Will tell. Easy to see.

13/8/07 4:25 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And guess what??? Moon-Jupiter in Aquarius just like kadimiros. No wonder. The generous mind. Advanced consciousness. Thank you both!

The ASC-NN is conjunct kad's Mars in Capricorn and my midheaven so this is helping us move toward our goals. Kad is always there in some way having these planets at the midheaven. We are just about to get there. This is so interesting as Pluto heads to all these points soon.

Mars in Pisces always flounders around direction-wise like my Mars-Neptune but eventually we learn how to flounder in convolution to where we'd like to go rather than feeling we'll never get there. We're already there but just have to realize it. That's forthcoming.

There is a growing feeling that the time has come with these placements. Saturn is also headed to your midheaven so worldly achievement is in the forefront, always always on your own terms with a NN in the 1st.

Read the stuff and we'll talk. Nodal similarities are good.

13/8/07 4:34 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I'm sure you saw that beautiful comment left by analysa on the other thread, Mr. Spiral Maker.

Music.

13/8/07 8:15 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

jm, thanks for the heads-up. :-) There was an Internet outage in my part of town on Monday, and I've been catching up on the work it delayed.

15/8/07 2:39 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

15/8/07 2:42 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"Good thing I've never needed to understand everything that's going on, my inner compass seems to work anyway when my mind can't make the leap."

That's all that's needed. :-)

"Brilliant."

Thank you. :-)

"I'm here in part because I sense something emergent that isn't yet born either into my consciousness or maybe into human consciousness yet, at least not in any widespread way. Some emergent form rises in space and time but I can't apprehend it. Either I don't have the structure to hold it or it isn't born yet? Or both? Like something you can't quite remember but it's on the tip of your tongue.
     "I feel it just beyond the edge of the horizon, a truly new knowledge or a new grasp of knowledge. Something emergent. It's not just a connection, but enough connections could lead me to be able to sketch the form of it. It's when enough connections are made that the new emergent awareness may come?"


Connections, yes, I think that's part of it.

Also asking the right question. Or better questions. Perhaps when we ask deeply, we not only send out a signal, we also put ourselves in a magnetic state to receive the answer.

Or to create a new answer.

So, maybe more people need to ask the questions you pose and imply.

That people are conversing and debating across the world is connection, too. Transformational ways of thinking and expressing are spreading through people who have had some kind of experience with expanded consciousness. We are drawing information into form, making it easier for other people to access. When I look at the pushme-pullyu of competing ideas in the world, I feel that the better memes will survive in the long term.

I'm inclined to believe that everything is somehow alive. Knowledge is not dead; information is alive, evolving. From one perspective, it's as if the universe is talking to itself, dreaming to awaken further. I suspect that consciousness builds on consciousness.

15/8/07 2:48 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Perhaps when we ask deeply, we not only send out a signal, we also put ourselves in a magnetic state to receive the answer.

I like this idea. Magnetic state. I think we're always in one and it determines what we attract. Can we determine that?

15/8/07 3:13 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Ah, I remember now. The metaphor is that an axle or hub could be hollow, suggestive of a still center.

So, with recent events, my thoughts and readings run now to the wheel of time turning around the timeless. A connection to the flow of inner energy, and of emotional impetus.

As we become aware of more, we feel more. We react to what we feel. If extremely discomforted, we may sometimes refuse to process experience, deny awareness, emotion or its expression. That would be separating or blocking part of the inner movement, altering the flow of unfolding being and the course of its experience.

In attending to what is present for us, we can better manage our inner flows of energy. (Inner government again.) And that seems to be the alignment with The Way.

Then, it seems to me, the internal harmony extends to external relations and events naturally supporting each other, possibly synchronicitously. Events seem part of each other, or part of a larger event. Actions seem part of larger actions. Something emerges that is more than a mere collection of unrelated, disparate parts.

15/8/07 4:26 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I like this idea. Magnetic state. I think we're always in one and it determines what we attract. Can we determine that?"

Via The Way?

15/8/07 4:29 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"If extremely discomforted, we may sometimes refuse to process experience, deny awareness, emotion or its expression."

Oops, that should be rephrased: "sometimes refuse to process experience -- we may deny awareness...." :-)

15/8/07 4:40 AM  
Blogger jm said...

to the wheel of time turning around the timeless.

I very much like this. Makes perfect sense.

emotional impetus.

This I'm not sure about, although you make a convincing case.
If the center is timeless, and I would assume spaceless, then how could emotion be there? E-"motion". Movement suggests time. So wouldn't feeling, emotion, sensation be on the rim?

If extremely discomforted, we may sometimes refuse to process experience, deny awareness, emotion or its expression. That would be separating or blocking part of the inner movement, altering the flow of unfolding being and the course of its experience.

Would 'unfolding being' be connected with emotion? I don't think so. Unfolding being would be more in the recognition of the unimportance of the emotion. The flux as it doesn't disturb the unfolding of being.

How exactly do we not block this unfolding? Not certain yet.

In attending to what is present for us, we can better manage our inner flows of energy. (Inner government again.) And that seems to be the alignment with The Way.

This I accept, but there seems to be a requirement of emotional detachment, not necessarily not-feeling, to find The Way.

Then, it seems to me, the internal harmony extends to external relations and events naturally supporting each other, possibly synchronicitously. Events seem part of each other, or part of a larger event. Actions seem part of larger actions. Something emerges that is more than a mere collection of unrelated, disparate parts.

This is so without doubt, again if we perceive the smaller within the larger we have to be removed in some sense. No? Separate from the experience in some dimension.

This is interesting, and something I've thought a lot about. Where we are positioned in emotional experience for the best results.

15/8/07 4:59 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I like this idea. Magnetic state. I think we're always in one and it determines what we attract. Can we determine that?"

Via The Way?


I'd like to try this. Some way to the Way that doesn't take forever. My time is limited at this point in my incarnation. And I'd have to do it from home. I'll take any ideas.

15/8/07 5:10 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This I'm not sure about, although you make a convincing case.
If the center is timeless, and I would assume spaceless, then how could emotion be there? E-"motion". Movement suggests time. So wouldn't feeling, emotion, sensation be on the rim?"


I think I was imagining that the emotion could be the part that goes around the central region. Maybe I could say that the central region allows for movement around it, making emotion possible.

Maybe I was being too poetic. :-) I was trying to write something analogous to the blank center area. Undefined -- or seems that way from one angle.

I liked the paradoxical sound of it at that moment.

Other times I like the phrase the "heart of time".

I am actually unconvinced about ideas of time/timelessness.

"That would be separating or blocking part of the inner movement, altering the flow of unfolding being and the course of its experience."

"Would 'unfolding being' be connected with emotion? I don't think so. Unfolding being would be more in the recognition of the unimportance of the emotion. The flux as it doesn't disturb the unfolding of being. How exactly do we not block this unfolding? Not certain yet."

I don't disagree. The unfolding itself doesn't stop, it's only that the perceived results are different in terms of the expression. I am trying to grasp an idea about a current being redirected away or diverted from trajectories it might have followed. Maybe it is like making a sharp turn back on itself, creating a new pattern. There's more friction with other currents around it. It can't actually not be part of existence. And once the pattern is created, it can be used well, so then it can't be considered negative from a larger perspective. It is a choice, say, between experiencing a sharp angle or a curve, and there is a broad range of choices.

If the imagery doesn't seem to work too well, that's fine. I am being a little daring, I think.

"This I accept, but there seems to be a requirement of emotional detachment, not necessarily not-feeling, to find The Way."

Allowing feeling of circumstances, and awareness of emotion. Not feeling that one has to interfere unduly. A kind of objectivity -- but where objectivity doesn't mean without feeling.

"This is so without doubt, again if we perceive the smaller within the larger we have to be removed in some sense. No? Separate from the experience in some dimension."

A different relationship of our consciousness to feeling, perhaps? Sometimes I think of it as moving perception to include awareness of space. I might be influenced by how perception works for art and the sense of spaces.

"This is interesting, and something I've thought a lot about. Where we are positioned in emotional experience for the best results."

Maybe your art can offer insights?

15/8/07 11:08 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"This is interesting, and something I've thought a lot about. Where we are positioned in emotional experience for the best results."

Hm, yes. Not "good" nor "bad", just moving towards more function, or different function. Nature's way of articulating and optimizing itself. And not implying an ultimate solution here.

15/8/07 11:12 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Maybe I could say that the central region allows for movement around it, making emotion possible.

This is a good way of putting it. The idea that the central region is intrinsic to existence. Exits within empirical experience as a way of remembering not to invest completely in the rim. This is beginning to make sense. It really can be applied all the time as the fluctuations present themselves in a constant jockeying for position. Also remembering that opposites spiral around the blank center. opposites are inevitable.

So for example, the emotions one day might be highly pleasing, but we can expect a downturn soon after. Fair enough. With the downturn comes fear possibly, that something isn't right. This of course is entirely untrue, just the mechanism at work. The spiral trying to progress. The center is the eye, the calm point of all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-understanding of the outer swings.

So we can experience the changes on the rim with the awareness accompanyng but not preventing experience. We can actually slip into the center anytime. Now I wonder if this can be used when circumstance becomes overwhelming. It's tricky, knowing how much to invest in a moment you know is fleeting and will soon change. What should be gleaned and how? How much sensation is optimum and should this be workd with, or just let be?

This is what I was after when I parted ways with the masters' idea of staying off the rim and in the center. As a result of this talk I'm beginning to get a glimpse of how to put it into practice.

Nature's way of articulating and optimizing itself. And not implying an ultimate solution here.

Yes, and no need for ultimate solution.

I think I was imagining that the emotion could be the part that goes around the central region.

I do wonder where the seat of emotion is and really, it's specific function. It ensures survival, no doubt. Fear, the most obvious. But joy must aid survival equally. It doesn't seem like we control these responses, and maybe that's one function of the center. A blank, neutral part of ourselves that knows, but we would miss all the sensations of emotional experience on the rim if we stayed there. And they are vital in some way. What way, is my curiosity.

So maybe we can't control emotional response, which is often problematic, but we can travel in and out of the center for moments of relief. In that way, the nothingness, the unimportance, would ensure suvival too, and we have choice as to how removed we want to be from the daily intensity. The recognition of the unimportance is what I like most.

A different relationship of our consciousness to feeling, perhaps?

Sometimes I feel foolish indulging in emotion, and this has been one of my challenges as an artist.

Very interesting. The feeling body. The seeing body. The knowing body. The unknowing body. How many are there?

15/8/07 1:00 PM  
Blogger jm said...

It certainly would be a dull life without emotion and feeling is part of intuition, so it can be used for navigation. I guess my question is how much is enough?

I do really "feel" a desire to be less on the rim, but I don't know until I've tried it and if it's really possible with me.

It is very very interesting. On the blogs, for example. Some people come through with panic and breathless emotion, and I feel it, share it, and so on. Some come in relaxed, but these are few. I also enjoy the more even keel of this experience, thinking I prefer it. But I don't know what it's like without the other.

So in terms of magnetic attraction, I see something unfolding. Actually answers come through in all ways, all experience, so the magnetism could be for another reason.

Doesn't magnetic attraction work to neutralize a desire, to create space for another one? Balance a polarity?

Isn't knowledge automatic? Recognition might not be, though, and of course application.

15/8/07 1:11 PM  
Blogger jm said...

What I'm wondering about is the value of non-excitement.:-)

The pleasure? Doesn't too much emotional intensity mask pleasure?

15/8/07 1:15 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is amazing. I think I'm really getting it.

I often criticize what I perceive as the excessive nonstop excitment of current events, but now I think I understand it. This is the outermost part of the wheel so naturally it moves fast. And many people are on that part of the rim so they hook onto it and nourish it. It's base sensation without much thought. No time for it, thus the confusion of facts, and the inability to arrive at obvious truth.

As we move in toward the center, the wheel turns more slowly to relative nonspin in the center.

So the hyper action of he world is correct and we just find our places in the whole according to our own natures and evolution.

This makes a big difference to me.

15/8/07 1:38 PM  
Blogger kj said...

This is so without doubt, again if we perceive the smaller within the larger we have to be removed in some sense. No? Separate from the experience in some dimension."

This is so without doubt, again if we perceive the smaller within the larger we have to be removed in some sense. No? Separate from the experience in some dimension."

In my experience, yes. Perspective, observation, on self. (Little "s" self as viewed by Self.) In my experience, there are ways other than dreams into this perspective, but dreams provide the separation and distance you're speaking about above.

15/8/07 3:24 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Just read Kad's A different relationship of our consciousness to feeling, perhaps?

I would offer a hearty "yes" to this. My various emotions are also entities unto themselves, with their own clothes opinions and apartments and lives, and provide me with either drama or comedy. When I have my wits about me when they're around, I write them down. Great source of dialog!

Sometimes I think of it as moving perception to include awareness of space. I might be influenced by how perception works for art and the sense of spaces.

Yes. Full-circle movement. Round stage.

15/8/07 3:38 PM  
Blogger kj said...

(I follow your conversations as best as I can, as always. To me, you both speak in a geometry I don't understand, but once in awhile a word or two breaks through and I can offer something concrete.)

15/8/07 3:41 PM  
Blogger kj said...

This is interesting, and something I've thought a lot about. Where we are positioned in emotional experience for the best results.

Oh, if only I knew 'the way' to that! My lessons just come, no matter what position or emotion prevails. However, I am attempting a measure of control over my future environment via this packing experience.

I exert environmental controls while writing or drawing or doing anything right-brain related.

When giving a reading, the control manifests in the earrings I choose to wear.

Talismans. Ceremony. Utterly and ultimately meaningless, but provide a touchstone before the leap past the rim, past the center, straight into the void, a void that is, I think, eternally alive.

15/8/07 3:57 PM  
Blogger kj said...

So for example, the emotions one day might be highly pleasing, but we can expect a downturn soon after. Fair enough. With the downturn comes fear possibly, that something isn't right. This of course is entirely untrue, just the mechanism at work. The spiral trying to progress. The center is the eye, the calm point of all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-understanding of the outer swings.

A wonderful experience today, not too high, but better than sorting through 'stuff.' @;-) A writer friend called on the phone. We are writing partners, but I'm not writing. She reminded me this non-writing is actually part of the writing process, something I forget each and every time it happens. Each and every time.

I love the spiral image.

15/8/07 4:09 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Dreams are clay we can work with, mold, as they themselves mold our experience.

The more meaning I give a certain image (not from a dream book, but from my own mind), the more that image places itself right where it knows it will be understood by me on waking.

A beacon unto itself, for itSelf... offered every day. And no anger if it goes unused or unremembered. Just absorbed back into the work, the clay.

15/8/07 4:13 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"We can actually slip into the center anytime. Now I wonder if this can be used when circumstance becomes overwhelming. It's tricky, knowing how much to invest in a moment you know is fleeting and will soon change."

Yes. That's a very interesting thing. It's harder if nothing seem to change for a long time. Enduring years of pressure or sense of confinement, say. Eventually, something has to release, I think.

"As a result of this talk I'm beginning to get a glimpse of how to put it into practice."

:-) I think this whole thread will help us.

"So maybe we can't control emotional response, which is often problematic, but we can travel in and out of the center for moments of relief."

That makes sense. I think remembering the center is also bringing it in, or going there (however one wants to put it). Extra space comes in before the response repeats. Or it's slowed, allowing time for realization, or recognition. And for little adjustments over the long term.

"Very interesting. The feeling body. The seeing body. The knowing body. The unknowing body. How many are there?"

That's one of those good questions. :-) Maybe as many as can be generated by evolution.

"I also enjoy the more even keel of this experience, thinking I prefer it. But I don't know what it's like without the other."

If I didn't know the flux, I'd want to learn about it. Even if it's unpleasant, even if it's just for a day. Even if being around certain people gives me a headache, feels confining, or challenges my biases. Then for the rest of my existence, I'll have a little more capacity for joy and happiness.

In terms of worldly ambitions, success and achievment, I think it's better to take a simpler job than one that brings stress and confusion. But, it's also good to stretch oneself, to better oneself. Just not overdo.

"Doesn't magnetic attraction work to neutralize a desire, to create space for another one? Balance a polarity?"

I would think so.

"Isn't knowledge automatic? Recognition might not be, though, and of course application."

Yes, and application really grounds the knowledge, makes it easier to access, more real in a way.

"The pleasure? Doesn't too much emotional intensity mask pleasure?"

I think we can exceed our physical capacities, short circuit ourselves with too much intensity.

"It's base sensation without much thought. No time for it, thus the confusion of facts, and the inability to arrive at obvious truth. As we move in toward the center, the wheel turns more slowly to relative nonspin in the center."

Yes! Good connection there. The emotional flux is faster.

"So the hyper action of the world is correct and we just find our places in the whole according to our own natures and evolution. This makes a big difference to me."

Yes, I feel that things are sinking in better for us.

15/8/07 4:20 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"My various emotions are also entities unto themselves, with their own clothes opinions and apartments and lives, and provide me with either drama or comedy. When I have my wits about me when they're around, I write them down. Great source of dialog!"

kj, you don't need geometry. :-) You are very wise.

"She reminded me this non-writing is actually part of the writing process, something I forget each and every time it happens."

That's an excellent reminder for me, too.

15/8/07 4:25 PM  
Blogger kj said...

This is amazing. I think I'm really getting it.

I often criticize what I perceive as the excessive nonstop excitment of current events, but now I think I understand it. This is the outermost part of the wheel so naturally it moves fast. And many people are on that part of the rim so they hook onto it and nourish it. It's base sensation without much thought. No time for it, thus the confusion of facts, and the inability to arrive at obvious truth.

As we move in toward the center, the wheel turns more slowly to relative nonspin in the center.

So the hyper action of he world is correct and we just find our places in the whole according to our own natures and evolution.

This makes a big difference to me.


Beautifully said!

JM, you have no idea how much I admire you for staying connected, even briefly, to the rim, if only to bring us news here, via RU.

My experience out there swingin just sucked the marrow right out of my bones. Not that I didn't do good work, not that I didn't learn an enormous amount that hasn't even begun to be processed yet... but oy, what a ride. I still don't feel clean.

And what tickles the back of my neck, scares me, is the buried realization that I'll probably have to go back into the mix, and JM, I really don't want to. I keep wanting you to find something in my chart that justifies me staying closer to the calm center.

I want the artists of the world to bond via 'the way' of our art, and I don't want to know anything more about the reality of the world scene.

Now, isn't that putting "importance" on notice that its "unimportant?" Huh? @;-)

15/8/07 4:26 PM  
Blogger kj said...

Ah Kad, magician friend. :-)

15/8/07 4:37 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Enduring years of pressure or sense of confinement, say. Eventually, something has to release, I think.

Absolutely. Some want the extremes, I think, so they stay under pressure for long periods to feel the magnitude of release.

If I didn't know the flux, I'd want to learn about it. Even if it's unpleasant, even if it's just for a day. Even if being around certain people gives me a headache

Very very very very well put.:-)

Yes, I feel that things are sinking in better for us.

This is a great thread. Amazing how it can gel all of a sudden.

I keep wanting you to find something in my chart that justifies me staying closer to the calm center.

I'll find it kj. Don't worry so much. You are free and can do exactly what you want to do. Really. If you want to stay in retreat, you can. You'll know if the time comes to do something else. Moving is tense, but you'll find relief in a bit. You don't need to make any big plans right now.

By fighting the world out there you give it more importance. ignore it if you REALLY want to. No one will punish you for that.

15/8/07 4:45 PM  
Blogger kj said...

I'll find it kj. Don't worry so much. You are free and can do exactly what you want to do. Really. If you want to stay in retreat, you can.

Oh good, permission to stay detached from the collective. @;-) All that Catholic guilt rears its head and I thank you for giving it a cookie and telling it to go wind twine if it wants to. {{{JM}}}

15/8/07 4:54 PM  
Blogger kj said...

And I meant the above in a most serious way.

15/8/07 4:56 PM  
Blogger m.p.k said...

I think we can exceed our physical capacities, short circuit ourselves with too much intensity.

This really struck me. I think too much time on the rim and we become desensitized. The rim of the wheel can be like an addiction, ever more stimulation is needed to produce the next high but we're always crashing down again. People who are desensitized by constant over stimulation are deadened in a way. The center still point is where we can notice everything around us. We move to the center because more sensitivity, more feeling, more awareness is their than on the rim. The smallest thing can become a great pleasure. A cup of coffee, the sunlight coming through the windows in the morning, a glass of water. At the center we are closer to matching the vibration of the radiance of life.

15/8/07 5:11 PM  

<< Home