Saturday, September 23, 2006

The Whispering Wineglass


Here's to Tseka!

To Art and Commerce

And to success for us all.

46 Comments:

Blogger kj said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

23/9/06 6:35 AM  
Anonymous casey said...

To Tseka! May she have a showing of gargantuan proportions.

23/9/06 8:12 AM  
Blogger Pat Paquette said...

It sure has been quiet around here without her and Juno. But I can't wait until they get back and tell us all about their adventures. I'll be waiting with a glass of wine. . .

23/9/06 8:51 AM  
Blogger Pat Paquette said...

Oops, sorry, didn't mean to suggest that all the Raging Caps weren't making enough noise! That was a great discussion. I really enjoyed it (my boss is a Capricorn, and the office administrator has Moon in Cap. My Venus in Cap appreciates and loves them both).

23/9/06 8:53 AM  
Anonymous juno jones said...

Hi all, just checking in before I go down to LaConner! Sorry, I've been quiet, not too much time as we have my husband's virgo friend up from CA this week and next week we play host to my virgo (her b-day was on the eclipse yesterday)friend coming up to visit. Very exciting. I've lurked a little, but have been out of depth a litle in the more technical conversation and didn't feel like I could add much. (...Besides, of course, "I got cap too, it's possibly the only thing holding me together... whatta 'bout you?" *smile*) But then, when I keep my mouth shut and listen, I usually learn something:)...
KJ, The Compleat Astrologer book should be widely availible, we have a bunch of them here in the local used bookstores for around $12.50 each. If amazon isn't competitive, I'd be happy to grab one for ya. Also, I don't know what the others think of it, but there is a basic course of astrology online (actually several, but I remember how to find this one)google "Canopus school of astrology", they have a free course on line that goes thru the basics. Oh gosh, I almost forgot, there's 'MSN HOROSCOPECHAT', I'm on the wrong computer to send a link, but I will later, it's a treasure trove of posted quotes from many different books on each planet, transit, etc, almost sensory overload, but you get a good idea of the subtleties where astrologers are different and where they overlap in interpretation.
Well, I'll be listening for the quiet sounds of whispering wineglasses (let me know if they say anything, 'K? I'm a little deef...)whilst I make pilgramage to see Tseka and her wonderful art. I'm excited, cantcha tell?

23/9/06 9:54 AM  
Blogger Neith said...

We'll be waiting for a report, Juno!!! Wishing we were there in person too. . . :-)

BTW, I believe i speak for more than myself when i say we are all in the learning phase when it comes to astrology. Shoot, I've learned more by tuning it here than i have on my own in years. Feedback is sooo good!

23/9/06 11:08 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Most of the noise has been going on on the A little blues tune in the key of E thread.

Kadimiros sent me a Fred Astaire/Jeanette MacDonald tap dance video in the wee hours and there was a lot of snapping, clicking, and music there!

Juno I'm so glad your going to LaConner. Can't wait to hear!

23/9/06 2:35 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

A form of cup, associated with liquids, water and emotions, the wine glass has a nice affinity here to the artist who works with watercolors.

Some for the love of truth miss the truth of love. The cup is an old symbol celebrating the latter in human lives. It is a vessel open to and holding spirit (pun permitted), giving form to the formless, and expression to essence. A meaning of spirit is the intangible "vital principle or animating force within living things".

Before the harmonica familiar to us today, there was the armonica (or glass harmonica), Ben Franklin's favorite invention. Franklin was impressed by European musicians who made music with wine glasses, but the painstaking measuring of liquids and testing of tones burdened the art. So he invented the armonica, a rotating instrument containing a set of glass goblets or bowls graduated in size.

To the artist who works with watercolors, and to the mythic journey everyone travels in life, the glasses now sing of an earlier cup of legend:

The Contemplation of the Grail

23/9/06 2:49 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Kadimiros this comment is great. Thank you so much.

Some for the love of truth miss the truth of love. The cup is an old symbol celebrating the latter in human lives.

Beautiful.

Fascinating about spirits. I have been studying the role of alcohol for a long long time. (heh heh)
When alcohol takes effect objects actually move more in the perception, thus animating them. Emotion is unleashed. You are so right about the connection to the watercolor medium.

The symbolism of the glass is boundless. It's a replacement for the original source of nourishment too.

To the artist who works with watercolors, and to the mythic journey everyone travels in life, the glasses now sing:

Thank you, my friend.

Singing it is.

23/9/06 2:55 PM  
Blogger jm said...

The lessons we need to learn

The quest for the Grail reminds us, and as a whole we always seem to need reminding, that the difficulties are lessons. We would be so much less without them.

I think the circle we drink from in the glass is highly symbolic.

That piece of sound you've given us is unique, Kad. So much to drink in in this world.

23/9/06 3:00 PM  
Blogger jm said...

My madcap artist, who was fond of bourbon, once made a sort of xylophone out of his empty bottles and water. Put it on the towel rack above the tub.
We called it the Bourbophone. He played it rather well.

23/9/06 3:08 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

You're very welcome. :-) I imagine the acoustic qualities of the bathroom enhanced the bourbon. Speaking of spirit, an old joke goes that you can often find more real spirit in a bar than in a church!

"The symbolism of the glass is boundless. It's a replacement for the original source of nourishment too."

Some think the grail legends are mixed with older stories of magic cauldrons such as the cauldron of rebirth, wisdom and bardic inspiration, or the endless cauldron of plenty that supplies food for the brave.

"I think the circle we drink from in the glass is highly symbolic."

Reminds how the old astronomical/astrological glyphs for the planets are circles, crescents and crosses. Who thinks up these things. The symbol for Venus is the circle of spirit resting over the cross of matter, so we are told.

23/9/06 4:32 PM  
Blogger jm said...

imagine the acoustic qualities of the bathroom enhanced the bourbon.

They did indeed.

The sounds they make when circling their fingers on the glass rim is also magical.

or the endless cauldron of plenty that supplies food for the brave.


That's exactly the one I'm after. Where exactly did you say that was, Kad?

Reminds how the old astronomical/astrological glyphs for the planets are circles, crescents and crosses. Who thinks up these things. The symbol for Venus is the circle of spirit resting over the cross of matter, so we are told.

The universal mind must think this up. You know, how inventions happen concurrently around the planet.

The circle is almost impossible to define.

23/9/06 7:05 PM  
Blogger jm said...

All creation follows a threefold scheme. First comes the concept of what is to be. Second, a method must be formulated to express the concept, third the raw material to embody the concept.
Purpose, plan, and substance.

The symbol of spirit is the circle. Infinity.

The symbol of soul is the cross. The downpouring of spirit through the horizontal plane of matter. Locates an individual in time and space. The ego. Divides man within himself and separates him from the world.

The symbol of matter is the lower half of the circle.It may be considered to be a chalice containing as much of the spirit as any form can. Resembles the crescent moon.

The moon and matter are associated with the feminine pole which results from the division of the perfect whole into positive and negative forces. However, the symbol for matter is an abstraction while the symbol for the moon is filled out to suggest the actual lunar shape. The soul is born of the mating,"crossing", of spirit and matter, and thereafter serves as a focusing medium of transmission for spiritual impressions..

Some astrologers correlate the cross with matter and moon with the soul, thus reversing the order.


More on Soul and Psyche.

23/9/06 7:37 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"That's exactly the one I'm after. Where exactly did you say that was, Kad?"

The Grail and the cauldrons are mainly Arthurian and Celtic traditions, but there are also mysterious cups or bowls in other cultures.

See Holy Grail in glossary of The Van Morrison Web site.

23/9/06 8:59 PM  
Blogger jm said...

I mean, where is it really?

23/9/06 9:00 PM  
Blogger jm said...

And what exactly do the brave eat, do you think?

23/9/06 9:01 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

Well, I'm not versed on Celtic myths, but one story has it that the cauldron of plenty was given to a king of Ireland.

"And what exactly do the brave eat, do you think?"

I'm not sure traditions were all that specific. It was more that the cauldron of plenty did not provide food for the cowardly. :-) We could say that, in life, fortune favors the bold.

Otherwise, the only references I've seen are to horsemeat or the endless bounty of the sea. I think eating has symbolized gaining courage in some cultures.

My sister dresses up as a witch on halloween and puts in sugar-free treats and toothpaste for those brave enough to ring the doorbell of her house. She tells them to brush after eating their treats.

23/9/06 9:44 PM  
Blogger jm said...

We could say that, in life, fortune favors the bold.

I wonder. I also wonder why we keep the weak going unlike other species.

I think eating has symbolized gaining courage in some cultures.

Very interesting.

23/9/06 10:56 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I wonder. I also wonder why we keep the weak going unlike other species."

Does it disturb? I would think it depends on the context of the specific story. Perhaps they were talking about battle. Or maybe there is a spiritual nourishment that those who have the courage of their convictions can access. What do you think? :-)

A person may have courage from conviction, which is not the same as physical strength. Psychological research shows that people who believe in themselves seek out opportunities and are more likely to notice and make the most of those that come their way. With others, you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

23/9/06 11:12 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Or maybe there is a spiritual nourishment that those who have the courage of their convictions can access.

That sounds logical. But I've always wondered about the weakening of the physical gene pool. If this is so, then maybe we are evolving past the need for this and the overtly weak harbor the genes for our evolution away from brute strength.

This would change my thinking. Very interesting.

A person may have courage from conviction, which is not the same as physical strength

It really bears thought. It would in a way give weakness the advantage.

23/9/06 11:32 PM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"That sounds logical. But I've always wondered about the weakening of the physical gene pool. If this is so, then maybe we are evolving past the need for this and the overtly weak harbor the genes for our evolution away from brute strength."

I think there could be many possibilities. One direction is genetic manipulation, to compensate for detrimental mutations and DNA damage that the species accumulates. And there could be healing modalities we don't utilize today.

We moved away from brute strengths long ago when our brains developed human intelligence. That's why we can easily find nonhuman animal species with keener eyesight, more acute senses, or stronger muscles.

The human species faces conscious choices of what it will become. Maybe we will become more neotenous in some ways.

24/9/06 12:34 AM  
Blogger jm said...

One direction is genetic manipulation, to compensate for detrimental mutations and DNA damage

I think this is inevitable.

I really hadn't thought deeply about this. The conscious manipulation of our evolution. It makes me think that this is what I'm perceiving in our growth. Either an awareness of this possibility or an actual threshold of discovery as to how we can accomplish it.

I wonder about natural selection then.

It does make sense that we are moving toward this kind of power over our destiny and somehow I think we will have the sense to do things right. I really believe we are in an intermediary stage of great discomfort and confusion right now. Would that we could be like the turtle!

24/9/06 12:56 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I sense this with our current political mayhem. This kind of brute force has been di rigeur for so long and even though people have cried "peace" they seem to have an acceptance of the behavior anyway.

But now, I think they are looking more like cavemen with clubs in the collective eye, even if not conscious. There is some awareness of the anachronism that has come in from my point of view. Especially with all the technological advancements of our day.

There is some force beckoning to the future and uncharted territory, excitement of discovery, and maybe the human race wants to go.

24/9/06 1:04 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I've also thought that the bondage of fossil fuels might give way to air, light, wind, and other elements to change our character.

24/9/06 1:07 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"I wonder about natural selection then."

What do you wonder about it? :-)

"Survival of the fittest" could be better understood as "survival of the fitting." What is fitting or adaptive changes with environment. Humans may manage the environment, and may shape or create their own environments.

Cooperative traits appear in other species as well as humans; it enhances survival of the group. Altruism is perhaps most developed in humankind. It is an expression of spirit, but it is rooted in earthly biology, too.

24/9/06 1:09 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

"There is some awareness of the anachronism that has come in from my point of view. Especially with all the technological advancements of our day."

I think so. What was acceptable to past generations is already unacceptable to many today. The children of tomorrow will grow up with more flexible expectations. The barriers we have now, as you suggested regarding distribution of resources, are mainly geopolitical and cultural.

"There is some force beckoning to the future and uncharted territory, excitement of discovery, and maybe the human race wants to go."

There could be ups and downs along the way. It will be an adventure. I suspect that the far future can take many forms. It will be for future generations to decide what to do with the legacy we leave them. They "dwell in the house of tomorrow."

24/9/06 1:23 AM  
Blogger jm said...

I wonder about it terms of chance mutation having been the drive behind adaptation so far. It seems we have gone about the business of survival while letting evolution happen without our attention.

So If we consciously shape ourselves then wouldn't we leave less to chance? Or would we?
And change the process of natural selection.

Or we would become a part of nature and participate in the process?

24/9/06 1:39 AM  
Blogger Kadimiros said...

I don't know if evolutionary shifts are really random.

Will we create, preserve or destroy? And to what degree? Hopefully, decisions will be made as consciously as possible. I doubt that the species as a whole would overdo. Likely the main interventions for a very long time to come will be for health.

The construct of society has been shaping the human species to be more reflective and cooperative for a long time. Maybe we are becoming more turtlish or tortoise-like.

On the other hand, I just swatted a mosquito. So there is a limit.

24/9/06 2:07 AM  
Blogger jm said...

HA HA HA HA HA!

I stopped killing horseflies but I still kill mosquitoes!
The flamin' &^%$#%^&!!!!

I must remember to gently swat from now on. To help the species along.

24/9/06 2:17 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

ohhh, horseflies. *shudder* I saw a blow-up of their mandibles which are like hacksaws. That's why their bites hurt so much.

jm, thanks for the reams of insight you gave me last night. I'm going to show him and see what he thinks.

24/9/06 7:47 AM  
Blogger kj said...

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24/9/06 8:37 AM  
Blogger kj said...

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24/9/06 8:40 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

kj, as if you need another book recommendation, try The Botany of Desire by Michael Pollan. He chose 4 plants that have been domesticated for centuries and explores how they have used their wiles to entice humans to cultivate and spread them around the globe. he chose apples for the fruit, tulips for beauty, marijuana for its chemical effects, and the potato for its nutritive value. Amazing book.

24/9/06 9:04 AM  
Blogger jm said...

Mosquites, horseflies, and wasps find no mercy with me. And woe to the ant that finds its way in the house

Very well put. And let me add the wasp in the house to that.

Joe, you're welcome. It was so easy to see. The charts are an incredible help and you will se a lot more of this. It's always exciting to me.

24/9/06 12:31 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

jm, if I ever had a modicum of skepticism buried somewhere in me about the accuracy of natal charts, well, it's been given a decent burial as of today. I cut'n'pasted our exchange into the voice reading program so he could listen to it (he's dyslexic) and he was impressed enough to want to explore more.

Interestingly, a very old friend of his, Thursa, who is now deceased, calculated his chart to the nth degree. You should see this scrap of paper he has, full of degrees, declinations, symbols, times, numbers, etc. It makes little sense to either of us but it seemed important enough that he kept it for years afterward inside the front flap of "A to Z Horoscope Maker & Delineator" by Llewelyn George.

He doesn't remember much about what Thursa told him beyond the item that he is on the cusp of Virgo/Libra.

24/9/06 3:58 PM  
Blogger jm said...

He doesn't remember much about what Thursa told him beyond the item that he is on the cusp of Virgo/Libra

Joe, you can't imagine how much this means to me. I love astrology like a person and I have seen its abuse for a long time, when it is such a valuable treasure. If not abuse through hocus pocus wrong predictions, just an ignoring of the real story. It's almost always the case that people don't remember what was said. All the mathematical details are simply a guide to the real picture. Usually too much attention is placed on this part of it.

There is a specific ability to see the person in the chart, not just the aspects, sign, etc. This is my talent. I can see the story usually and the basic theme of the life. I don't know exactly what to do with this skill, since people have to be ready. I will be delighted beyond measure to give you what I know and I also think you will absorb an ability to use astrology, too, from all of this.
The thing I am so so excited about right now is your recognition. I've been waiting for this. For people to get serious about self analysis. It's entirely different from therapy and I love sharing the experience. You can't imagine.

As we go, we'll learn the charts, his included. It's a beautiful and graceful orchestration when all put together. And a guide better than anything I know.

24/9/06 4:13 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Hey, I'm glad I inadvertently made your day, jm. :o)

I'm printing out our Astrodienst charts and analyses and here's something that confuses me. On his chart, he has the following transits:

Jupiter square Jupiter: Beginning of February 2007 until mid October 2007.
Pluto trine Pluto: Mid February 2007 until beginning of December 2008.

Huh? How can a planet square or trine or whatever itself???

24/9/06 4:16 PM  
Blogger jm said...

In the natal chart the planets are all in their locations at the moment of birth.

So say Jupiter is at 20 degrees Aries.

Immediately they move on. So when they move ahead far enough to make an angle such as 90 degrees(square) or 120 degrees(trine) this is a transit.

When Juiter moves on from the 20 Aries to 20 Libra, this is a 90 degree square and will bring issues up around these placements. That's the time to deal with them.


In his chart, Jupiter is at
16 Virgo. In '07 it will be in Sagittarius making this 90 degree angle.
The transiting Jupiter will be in his 5th house of self expression. This ties in perfectly with the other transits in his development of confidence we were talking about and his release of self. There is a lot to work with here.

I'll look at what else is happening with this and let you know. The problem with listing the transits like the sites do is that they don't know anything about the person and what else is going on. They don't synthesize.

All transits to the birth chart are angles to the original spots, the self included. Jupiter to Jupiter.

24/9/06 4:31 PM  
Blogger jm said...

A little later I'll look at both charts and see what can be done right now.

What I'd like to do is get the basics covered enough so we can start posting the charts and analysing together. It won't take long. We can do this repeatedly and you'll be amazed at how much will sink in.

You just need to know the symbols really. The whole thing wants to be understood and makes it easy for us if we're humble.

24/9/06 4:42 PM  
Anonymous Joe said...

The transiting Jupiter will be in his 5th house of self expression. This ties in perfectly with the other transits in his development of confidence we were talking about and his release of self. There is a lot to work with here.

No kidding, jm-- you'll flip when you read this! I just remembered that he told me he was considering running for president of a neighborhood development board we're both on. AND, several people have recently told him they think he should run for president/chair of a council for independent living (for people with disabilities) that he's been a member of for about 4 years now.

It's starting already, I guess.

A little later I'll look at both charts and see what can be done right now.

Make sure you take time to eat and sleep!

24/9/06 4:53 PM  
Blogger Neith said...

Joe left this comment over on my blog & I thought it was well worth bringing over & sharing with you, jm!

jm and I were just talking about transits over in Whispering Wineglasses because I was puzzled by how a planet could square itself or trine itself in a chart. Putting both Neith's explanation and jm's together was a perfect synthesis for me.

Isn't this a treat?! As I commented to Joe over on my blog, it seems a good way to describe my Libra Sun on your DES.

24/9/06 5:27 PM  
Blogger jm said...

This is fantastic joe!1 Incredible!

I had some more insights and I'll put them up in a mo. This is a wonderful thing for you. I realized some things especially about your role, but first I'll take your advice and EAT!

24/9/06 7:17 PM  
Blogger jm said...

So onward we go.

One thing important is your North Node in Capricorn along with the Moon and Jupiter.

This is a destiny coming from a childlike role to a parental role in life. Coming into authority and responsibility. So you are called to help others achieve their goals and live up to their potential. This is a perfect example as you advise your lover with your expertise as it grows. It's a perfect combo with the male strictness and the Moon sensitivity. It's already happening as the years ahead will perfect. It takes getting used to...to take this position of responsibility in someone's life, but you can do it.

Your mate looks to have had a serious parental problem in his own past, and you are probably there to correct the damage by taking the new parental role from a position of wisdom. He needs emotional security, a feeling of home. His destiny is actually not out in the world as much as yours. He wants a safe home and a good parent taking care of things. Even if he does go out and achieve, home will be the destiny. Fears of abandonment are strong with his placements.

With you, the destiny is like a spiritual guide, always there with sound advice, accurate and fair judgement, and honesty. Just the right things to say.

25/9/06 12:28 AM  
Anonymous Joe said...

Again, amazing. I have taken leadership roles in the last year that would have been, for me, quite unthinkable. I have my moments, but I am usually no longer content to remain a wallflower or bystander.

A few years ago, I think on my 30th birthday, I remarked to my mother that I was amazed how "rooted" I felt now that I had bought a house. I was more aware of adult privileges and stability, (particularly having a choice in matters affecting me).

I think that Saturn return, far from being the negative I keep hearing about, was for me a deepening of maturity and stability.

jm said: Your mate looks to have had a serious parental problem in his own past, and you are probably there to correct the damage by taking the new parental role from a position of wisdom. He needs emotional security, a feeling of home. His destiny is actually not out in the world as much as yours. He wants a safe home and a good parent taking care of things. Even if he does go out and achieve, home will be the destiny. Fears of abandonment are strong with his placements.

Wow again. You're right. Totally invalidating mother who undercut him constantly, and still does even at 75. Pick, pick, pick. His father was strict, and died when M. was about 19.

So if it's as you say, then how topsy turvy since I'm the younger by 17 years. The age is immaterial, however, but it confuses a lot of people, esp. in the beginning.

25/9/06 5:03 PM  
Blogger jm said...

Age is completely immaterial.

I think that Saturn return, far from being the negative I keep hearing about, was for me a deepening of maturity and stability.

This is exactly what I mean about astrology. The old texts called Saturn a malefic. Not auspicious when you see him coming. He's neutral like all of them.

You said it perfectly.

25/9/06 5:13 PM  

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